From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F5CC0032 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2022 12:27:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C33404F5 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2022 12:27:31 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 78C33404F5 Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key, unprotected) header.d=toaster.cc header.i=@toaster.cc header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=protonmail3 header.b=3Oo/ZeoH X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I6FYl8Hg2V4T for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2022 12:27:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:25 by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 85962400A4 Received: from mail-41103.protonmail.ch (mail-41103.protonmail.ch [185.70.41.103]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85962400A4 for ; Mon, 5 Dec 2022 12:27:28 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 12:21:44 +0000 Authentication-Results: mail-41103.protonmail.ch; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=toaster.cc header.i=@toaster.cc header.b="3Oo/ZeoH" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=toaster.cc; s=protonmail3; t=1670242906; x=1670502106; bh=p4m8Ua4RYOKxZh5G9le+38Sw7JkAolc13Xe782aMVXk=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=3Oo/ZeoH7GDxD2Vk80O2gH5zdIlxGG8uvpQqnmwf18VQHM3ErQ1dRGsXGtd588DTj 9duLqfcBHj2ZW08i2wpYkY6T6pqDopILYUQkmK8PvjpPewv5QY8ekJeHf77BcAMJda h25AXAlqeULqfw7hKaX44iJlbQPX2TOwWCZLwYg2oh3Kudkn7DIldCEb243nMEs3/B 66sdlxFCENlHFQd5ryJsPugmciuwLS8cSYkjfVyZ70ltx1CVyq7DZhTxMStJk5YhC2 cjw5sTLst7MdNUg/wVNeKfc5q6bvmPeJch2QKHN6R8xlcKI4hNO4Vxie+RBY+m+hQK OpPMi81Ld9qpg== To: Daniel Lipshitz , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion From: angus Message-ID: <-C_sX7ApYy_2MgXfl7e1ONddIi9gtET5jV4MTl_F_CstCvTuV0vTFfazF7tKBd53o6QbZ1xygayPIaCVjDyV-9yklnfk_t0IH23rw2LtqKQ=@toaster.cc> In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: 10272201:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512; boundary="------08d3d6c0cd6d0e443bc3ff44f907b6f8de77e96feb5e80858d967f3784a56dd1"; charset=utf-8 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 13:26:26 +0000 Subject: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate danger X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2022 12:27:32 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------08d3d6c0cd6d0e443bc3ff44f907b6f8de77e96feb5e80858d967f3784a56dd1 Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary=---------------------0a761db651e2c3cb5c50bead64df3088 -----------------------0a761db651e2c3cb5c50bead64df3088 Content-Type: multipart/alternative;boundary=---------------------72fe99493a063dc3ad01536841344e31 -----------------------72fe99493a063dc3ad01536841344e31 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Core adding full RBF is a change of node policy that may be highly inconve= nient for zero-conf users, but there has always been and will always be a = risk of a double-spend for anyone that treats zero-confirmation transactio= ns as settled. It's literally in the name - this transaction has zero conf= irmations and no guarantee it'll make it into a block, and so has not yet = settled. The perception seems to be that Core adding the full RBF option is increas= ing the risk to zero-conf users, but I'm not convinced that that is the ca= se - someone wanting to double-spend attack you isn't going to be bothered= to do so over a few thousand sats (unless they can do it thousands of tim= es), and losing a few thousand sats to a double-spend isn't the biggest de= al. It's always been the risk of getting double-spent out of hundreds or thous= ands of bitcoins that's worth seriously worrying about, which is much more= the kind of attack a determined attacker is able to carry out. Such a det= ermined attacker is much more likely to attempt and succeed at a sybil att= ack, or directly colluding with a miner. So your zero-conf risk increases = non-linearly as the amount of bitcoin being transacted grows. (caveat: thi= s paragraph is opinion). There does, however, seem to be a legitimate business for providing insura= nce/risk management for people that are willing to accept the zero-conf ri= sk - it is pretty similar to accepting credit cards with a chargeback risk= or any payment card with a capture risk, though there's no-one to mediate= a dispute. On-chain is final. But what doesn't make any sense is trying to avoid Bitcoin Core and nodes = from adopting a full RBF policy to try to protect this use case. As has be= en pointed out by may others before, full RBF is aligned with miner (and u= ser) economic incentives and is a node policy, not consensus, so you can't= even tell which nodes are doing it nor can you prevent them from doing so= . Second, Bitcoin core 24 with the full RBF option is already out in the w= ild at around 5%+ of running nodes and growing, so it's too late to kill i= t. So my point is that relying on node policy as part of your protection for = zero-conf transaction acceptance is fragile, and should not be relied upon= . The protocol rules have always tacitly allowed double-spending before a = confirmation, and it has always been clear that there's no consensus on wh= ich transactions have occurred until they have in a block and have at-leas= t one confirmation. The long-term 'what to do about it' is to use Lightning if you want fast p= ayments with risk-free instant settlement, or as above, accept the zero-co= nf risk and cover yourself with an insurance premium (e.g. a margin on tra= nsactions that goes into an insurance fund, and limiting max transaction a= mount so you're not exposed to uncoverable losses if you do get double-spe= nd attacked) Angus -----------------------72fe99493a063dc3ad01536841344e31 Content-Type: multipart/related;boundary=---------------------b76700fc017bd3eec593de33a2ab9d81 -----------------------b76700fc017bd3eec593de33a2ab9d81 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGRpdiBzdHlsZT0idGV4dC1hbGlnbjogbGVmdDsiIGFsaWduPSJsZWZ0Ij48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0i Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IEhlbHZldGljYTsgZm9udC1zaXplOiAxMnB0OyBsaW5lLWhlaWdodDogbm9y bWFsOyBjb2xvcjogcmdiKDAsIDAsIDApOyI+Q29yZSBhZGRpbmcgZnVsbCBSQkYgaXMgYSBjaGFu Z2Ugb2Ygbm9kZSBwb2xpY3kgdGhhdCBtYXkgYmUgaGlnaGx5IGluY29udmVuaWVudCBmb3IgemVy 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