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[69.59.18.99]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 41be03b00d2f7-b2f5f2fb7a7si554106a12.3.2025.06.09.10.51.44 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 09 Jun 2025 10:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lf-lists@mattcorallo.com designates 69.59.18.99 as permitted sender) client-ip=69.59.18.99; X-DKIM-Note: Keys used to sign are likely public at X-DKIM-Note: https://as397444.net/dkim/mattcorallo.com and X-DKIM-Note: https://as397444.net/dkim/clients.mail.as397444.net X-DKIM-Note: For more info, see https://as397444.net/dkim/ Received: by mail.as397444.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) (Exim) (envelope-from ) id 1uOges-000fpH-37; Mon, 09 Jun 2025 17:51:43 +0000 Message-ID: <01f49d64-838e-4311-bf79-8c4130b40c8e@mattcorallo.com> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:51:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter To: James O'Beirne Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List References: <6f78b702-4bd0-4aa4-ac51-b881d8df9f01@mattcorallo.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Matt Corallo In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Original-Sender: lf-lists@mattcorallo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@mattcorallo.com header.s=1749489663 header.b=bEmlKShX; dkim=pass header.i=@clients.mail.as397444.net header.s=1749489665 header.b=p2qEf4lo; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lf-lists@mattcorallo.com designates 69.59.18.99 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lf-lists@mattcorallo.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=mattcorallo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) On 6/9/25 10:43 AM, James O'Beirne wrote: > On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 9:51=E2=80=AFAM Matt Corallo lists@mattcorallo.com>> wrote: > > That said, I have yet to see a reasoned explanation of why we should p= refer CTV over TXHASH. >=20 > From the author of TXHASH himself on Delving Bitcoin > (https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-csfs-can-we-reach-consensus-on-a-first-= step-towards-=20 > covenants/1509/15 towards-covenants/1509/15>): >=20 > >=C2=A0Having implemented TXHASH, I would definitely not say that > > it =E2=80=9Csimplifies the change=E2=80=9D. Who claimed TXHASH is simpler than CTV? > > The difference in both technical debt and > > potential for bugs is an order of magnitude bigger for TXHASH than for > > CTV. I mean, sure, compared to something trivial doing something marginally-triv= ial has a lot bigger=20 surface area. But that isn't really an argument unless we're talking about = something truly=20 complicated, and TXHASH absolutely is not. > > (Not to say that I don=E2=80=99t think TXHASH would be worthwhile, but= I > > will definitely say that it has not received the attention I had expec= ted, > > so I would definitely not want to put it on the table anytime soon.) I mean there's still debate around the exact format of CTV commitments (eg = whether it commits to=20 scriptSigs, if it works outside of segwit, etc), saying that there's debate= over the format of=20 TXHASH isn't exactly a compelling argument either? Yes, it needs some work,= but the time we'll=20 invest in CTV isn't all that different from the time we'll invest in TXHASH= , once we pick a direction. > The use-cases that might merit such a jump up in complexity over CTV > have not been enumerated to my knowledge. This is a much better argument :). I'm a bit skeptical, though, that its qu= ite this cut-and-dry. For=20 example, the utter hack of the BitVM-with-CTV variant pretty clearly points= to us needing a more=20 fully featured commitment gadget to enable these things without the nonsens= e they had to resort to. Further, we should think at least somewhat about what we think a reasonable= end state is. As far as=20 I understand, most proponents of CTV+CSFS do not think that CTV+CSFS is *al= l* we want, but rather a=20 first step towards some goal. If that goal includes more flexible tx field = commitments (I imagine it=20 certainly does!) then we should do that, rather than taking a detour we sho= uld make progress towards=20 the eventual goal! > CTV also includes > upgrade hooks to incorporate modifications should these additional > uses be more fully understood. I do not understand why people make this argument. Yes, the encoding of the= opcode allows you to=20 turn it into an OP_NOP (or SUCCESS or whatever), that doesn't make it "upgr= ade hook"-friendly. If we=20 think that we just want to do CTV but we want CTV to be upgradable later to= be TXHASH, then we first=20 need to define the TXHASH hash and bitfield format, so that we can take the= subset of it that=20 captures CTV and hard-code that. But, of course, if we do that work we shou= ld clearly do TXHASH :). These really feel like the same arguments again and again. I just don't fin= d them even remotely=20 compelling. "Oh, well, if we want to figure out TXHASH someone would have t= o define a bitfield=20 format and that will take years" is just nonsense. Hell, its already done! = Maybe we want to tweak=20 it, but honestly bikeshedding over a specific bitfield format sounds like i= t'll take a hell of a lot=20 less time than trying to make sure we work out all the cases for what someo= ne might want to commit=20 to that we want them to commit to but not more and fix a specific set of co= mmitments! Matt --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 01f49d64-838e-4311-bf79-8c4130b40c8e%40mattcorallo.com.