From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C4B5C000E for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:52:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0939860A64 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:52:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=voskuil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9qFDbJK2E6FG for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:52:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-pl1-x635.google.com (mail-pl1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::635]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06C9460781 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:52:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-x635.google.com with SMTP id u19so1153173plc.3 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 02:52:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=voskuil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=7TlQnZ1mlj8oIbMrhG1ZbB7FudB7FO+DdzK1dU1ExwM=; b=pmxAoBPZhODScQa9v6coeeYydHNhtwaDeVjlFbJOxtQI30FJrecMuqgjKQcWQHVa75 tbKE44Zhv3EYjnRQr4VMJaPmWKfW/xVyMqDxbJxvrWXaZjzaxDEY3ciQQXpo/Nl2qvQj I4s3uWE1KaEEwGCRTF9MRAmxnjXzoZ6EqX7LGH24DNiXTzA2mzpSrSwUzv/BUK+Vq+/M z74e3vKWyp6VtlAg6yudnfWhSzp2gply2zmGopkzXKsxhlaEZjSzcv5wPVKKDRbLSGzs XzfpvzKVSo1weKPQdtRLabauEJna+IvRuQEdsxel/wentEuauAuodA4AhLVqlDhMJvKT syTQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=7TlQnZ1mlj8oIbMrhG1ZbB7FudB7FO+DdzK1dU1ExwM=; b=Z7zedDAy9cqmnia+qKsPXu7JAXJyCs+2S7LNXnb9Q5b79dFvO99QHA9oytEzf4qP8i dyGgmwXoDTHRIAf27aRQWsJ9qjR2T3gU6ljwXh7ZYoxq6xA2gFxB3JAYG8hb3Gcoo532 KgSqqOCyMsBzTFhmDVZQoUC7SB/vDcCtb/6MplZpPJd04W3Jz2S2oZcDr4fIX+CLDIYJ bTlkZE96b1V5UfDQ36BZtSUdo0tvpEppEAlJuSdmyFAu3NsHBFwwRuKatfjgwxfxowPQ rOL06d5xvpCMldkxkuNbUT4S/4KNCpPIKAa10NkTxrTWn3zzoKqjqhYxun6vCvHCFa/d eGVA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531s2y2LztXd7Sfm53CyIV1bRW7VfWRuJizDo1wcxGazRp0bzrz0 Z2QZ2o8JCeZvIaHe8c3NQZM6yw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzVBzbLz4/5DPgVSxECZR15kXTp9l/JPoBtoQZdEFzyKORWA9SitmdU8n3ImeHtyfEhgGs5ZQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:7062:: with SMTP id f89mr3697634pjk.70.1625046763325; Wed, 30 Jun 2021 02:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ERICDESKTOP ([2601:600:9c00:1d0::9d25]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c72sm2106771pfb.145.2021.06.30.02.52.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Jun 2021 02:52:42 -0700 (PDT) From: To: =?UTF-8?Q?'Jorge_Tim=C3=B3n'?= References: <2368396E-6964-4F12-B50F-2BE477D0C7D8@voskuil.org> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 02:52:42 -0700 Message-ID: <028901d76d95$abb883f0$03298bd0$@voskuil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGzRHqRlNUnlmfFxKP28gVDQPjFFgHW7TzYAvNJWiKrTkrfkA== Content-Language: en-us Cc: 'Bitcoin Protocol Discussion' , 'Billy Tetrud' Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Trinary Version Signaling for softfork upgrades X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 09:52:46 -0000 > From: Jorge Tim=C3=B3n =20 >> "Soft forks aren=E2=80=99t compatible without miner enforcement" > Compatible with what? There is a good summary of what is meant by this term in BIP141: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0141.mediawiki "Backward compatibility As a soft fork, older software will continue to operate without = modification. Non-upgraded nodes, however, will not see nor validate the = witness data and will consider all witness programs as anyone-can-spend = scripts (except a few edge cases where the witness programs are equal to = 0, which the script must fail). Wallets should always be wary of = anyone-can-spend scripts and treat them with suspicion. Non-upgraded = nodes are strongly encouraged to upgrade in order to take advantage of = the new features." The explanation is however incomplete. If majority hash power does not = enforce the new rules, the above is incorrect. Granted the word = "operate" is vague, but clearly what is intended is that "non-upgraded" = nodes will not be on a different coin. But in fact they would be. The = underlying presumption is that BIP141 is not only signaled, but enforced = by majority hash power. >> "Soft forks without miner support cause splits". > No, what causes splits are 3 things: > > 1) bugs > 2) coordination mistakes > 3) people wanting different rules. #3 (and possibly #4) is what we're talking about, so it's not at all = clear why you said "no". People change their rules, because #3. If majority hash power does not = enforce this (soft) change, it's a chain split. > Let me give an example. Let's say all users want change A. > > Only 60% miners want it. > When it activates with LOT=3Dtrue, will this cause a split? No, regardless of percentage adoption. You've proposed that it' is = majority hash power enforced. Furthermore, the term compatibility (see above) implies that not = everyone (your impossible presumption of 100%) is aligned. This is not a debatable subject as far as I'm concerned, but it's worth = discussion for those who aren't familiar. e