From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4035C002D for ; Wed, 4 May 2022 04:04:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE2983EEF for ; Wed, 4 May 2022 04:04:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=voskuil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wCYkXJnnF9lH for ; Wed, 4 May 2022 04:04:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com (mail-pj1-x1034.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3BAE83EED for ; Wed, 4 May 2022 04:04:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id e24so152270pjt.2 for ; Tue, 03 May 2022 21:04:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=voskuil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=Yw1+5DzQLWoV4ax4Q7zlKKEnvD7Tr4un3sfKSeB0dpI=; b=FG3AsvCDhqLlKIOegEAZyPDURnAMj05kvYqJorGHEHGd9clm9PHuZlPAXJ+Ws2k2QN 4Z+x1qkp+yGiKG+cHUcq35wmBZA+ntpDOK4fjpNiJvLkkxRnkAD8joucj73PuYUKVpIL NoiUVhzGqJcIry7MXH08zGhJnW+rSfFdfwyzHxxeM2cpKMPPzUStEHugld1v634usnwF Orv8HxQzD+2fNPbFFAKOqne/w9oZ0SAuo07f/6ojIgKSxcbwvHsgfzW/DMcBxaAaUfER gbwomIryIwXHttTIkLs/WXVEjmeC3EzE4qGZspLy5pCH0eW6cijXPbE1M3DdLXMd8mC+ SFWA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=Yw1+5DzQLWoV4ax4Q7zlKKEnvD7Tr4un3sfKSeB0dpI=; b=ROqjaXtpxDQRvrC99YYI2rshYFaO94WPFv3CrebmbAS4f6Lazjc1P69awNnzT6jl0t cjYkgvrRDLc7FqAappyuev6jK1PjfIzGYB2MDhBrlH5JjzVcCk14p9htDGI5NgI9OoHk FM0nurESqXiJzMTm0gMR9snCb2IRQzkl9wVIHS5s3Y23tIZiNuwG1Nf8MustUYtYVqAD gqd9P1uZ3fS/cCHtyeaEYMphR8r0u6qJx0V6b1tXI1ombiTttEzp4vmAC5VjvhUnij9W JXY6zRej70Dz+8ih/kgUkRvQDEB3be1xz/JxbbpyS8+nMQVHDdvcQ/idF+d16V53O6wc 2IOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533he367HGWmq5G5kWX3yxWp1TE6/jKvg2N6LaiKC31ZWfpN5XtF hhbg8WcfSHUWIiokYlAEfCZ2iA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyoLF0/kRj+5C6a0rjOPbHZuqDgl9PWDvfcEBGBfGBq3WpZC54yWp73DermNthE4tIcpirdGg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:ec0e:b0:1d9:7f4d:23be with SMTP id l14-20020a17090aec0e00b001d97f4d23bemr8217371pjy.181.1651637051108; Tue, 03 May 2022 21:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ERICDESKTOP ([2601:600:9c00:1d0::bbe6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u11-20020a62ed0b000000b0050dc762818csm7066978pfh.102.2022.05.03.21.04.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 May 2022 21:04:10 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "'ZmnSCPxj'" References: <48D4B621-D862-4031-AE43-3F54D34FB0B5@voskuil.org> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 21:04:10 -0700 Message-ID: <03d701d85f6c$027c5900$07750b00$@voskuil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQNG5FH7rVDDJiwd0yZV2FzKY4oQ/AFkcJ/JAe3DhcKqFnP38A== Content-Language: en-us Cc: 'Bitcoin Protocol Discussion' Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Timelocked address fidelity bond for BIP39 seeds X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 May 2022 04:04:12 -0000 Good evening ZmnSCPxj, For the sake of simplicity, I'll use the terms lender (Landlord), = borrower (Lessor), interest (X), principal (Y), period (N) and maturity = (height after N). The lender in your scenario "provides use" of the principal, and is paid = interest in exchange. This is of course the nature of lending, as a = period without one's capital incurs an opportunity cost that must be = offset (by interest). The borrower's "use" of the principal is what is being overlooked. To = generate income from capital one must produce something and sell it. = Production requires both capital and time. Borrowing the principle for = the period allows the borrower to produce goods, sell them, and return = the "profit" as interest to the lender. Use implies that the borrower is = spending the principle - trading it with others. Eventually any number = of others end up holding the principle. At maturity, the coin is = returned to the lender (by covenant). At that point, all people the = borrower traded with are bag holders. Knowledge of this scam results in = an imputed net present zero value for the borrowed principal. While the lack of usability is a cost to the lender, it is not a benefit = to the borrower. The lender incurs no risk, and will obtain no reward - = as the loan is of no value. Failure to deploy capital is an opportunity = cost, and locking it up is not deployment. Now, even if we accept the generous (economically irrational) assumption = that money must increase in price (i.e. trades from more goods) over any = given period, we are still left with the observation that the presumed = appreciation would accrue to the lender absent lending, making it = pointless. e > -----Original Message----- > From: ZmnSCPxj > Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2022 7:37 PM > To: Eric Voskuil > Cc: Chris Belcher ; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion = dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> > Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Timelocked address fidelity = bond for > BIP39 seeds >=20 > Good morning e, >=20 >=20 > > It looks like you are talking about lending where the principal = return is > guaranteed by covenant at maturity. This make the net present value of = the > loan zero. >=20 > I am talking about lending where: >=20 > * Lessor pays landlord X satoshis in rent. > * Landlord provides use of the fidelity bond coin (value Y) for N = blocks. > * Landlord gets the entire fidelity bond amount (Y) back. >=20 > Thus, the landlord gets X + Y satoshis, earning X satoshis, at the = cost of having Y > satoshis locked for N blocks. >=20 > So I do not understand why the value of this, to the landlord, would = be 0. > Compare to a simple HODL strategy, where I lock Y satoshis for N = blocks and > get Y satoshi back. > Or are you saying that a simple HODL strategy is of negative value and = that > "zero value" is the point where you actively invest all your savings? > Or are you saying that HODL strategy is of some value since it still = allows you > to spend funds freely in the N blocks you are HODLing them, and the = option to > spend is of value, while dedfinitely locking the value Y for N blocks = is equal to > the value X of the rent paid (and thus net zero value)? >=20 > Regards, > ZmnSCPxj