From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66AD7C000E for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 18:32:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9D7423FF for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 18:32:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=voskuil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gThLm-W7lqru for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 18:32:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-pf1-x42b.google.com (mail-pf1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42b]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52471423FC for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2021 18:32:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pf1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id j9so3823619pfc.5 for ; Fri, 09 Jul 2021 11:32:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=voskuil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=1U9LHYz9i2FqWprqC/ocs0p71PK0fEw2f4NBXUr2FLg=; b=MrFap+CUTfzqgmLOjzVv3E6GlumYLxfQJQJOYG0ClNH9g2ggELS5HlSmv7Qhn0XW2j s0kc6hAh2ubb8xahJMR/fTdf422WOCAIsXhP/USqHi7cYN+qA6/IikDtHoBc6Gqy4jJQ y7MtIiTkJQm8rtHNC9dvnSfUHDGgaY2ZgiBc4CILLRrpsqks6tB+ukqupB6OFh+AegVQ jgFFjPg1IrcGNav6lLXdD035+40GcYVKIvJFaaCMpjLGvxKlLWa4TCBUoEsHG8hRBMvl 8mJlUovOEhGqR6beRXl+ftAcv2NRi3g3QPjHYeEUAZKWYEYtYaprcyv7v5HGb/4XcwtH ASag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=1U9LHYz9i2FqWprqC/ocs0p71PK0fEw2f4NBXUr2FLg=; b=k7glV2t4kqCm4OfA1ffk9aXYA5LVISkBshsaA6Cq9r2toFt6AfuqMIRd3nWfteUpMW 7He53gItWmQyXhxbOV6Fc0HtdVrEbHNDRNvRU+1Z4YQGdW7AEyJSROtHsWqowdQVJuBo DNtdPHeEAT5Sm1tG3VlsBV2q3qs6NPaePYhfmvAkbF6QR5mugV6XudmX2EKj0DLp0rvq ExuZvNu2INbTv5SfcOOPSE9RqbDOl+smPApYe745AT19ovt7UO74jchpAB+SbYrhHPdf k9p4Q36uoETZaSP7AX7GMncNB4l9isHmsrPhBv4mkuoSKjfsM6pc5lipoJev7f6RTRml h6/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530/Z4ggbtDuAHhk/ByZtzilz5yw+cZnsmGIehcEqPRQuDD4KsNR T/FVO9eMxnWtttLlUzQ103ga0g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzHk3yA+bumWA2wWFBUhJ1i4kwQVu3Jl7tB3GfMpqY9HTH/udpm4+wNS6oFrCanaLymWw9wKg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:145d:: with SMTP id 29mr27967084pgu.135.1625855533628; Fri, 09 Jul 2021 11:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2601:600:9c00:1d0::7844]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d2sm7415273pfa.84.2021.07.09.11.32.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 09 Jul 2021 11:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Eric Voskuil Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 11:32:12 -0700 Message-Id: <0A99CF2C-36E4-475F-9160-A999D4AFDA7F@voskuil.org> References: In-Reply-To: To: Billy Tetrud X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18F72) Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proof of reserves - recording X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2021 18:32:15 -0000 > On Jul 9, 2021, at 10:44, Billy Tetrud wrote: >=20 > > there is an unsupportable leap being made here >=20 > You think that because you're misinterpreting me. I'm in no way claiming t= hat any solvent company can prove it, I'm simply claiming that any company c= an prove that they have bitcoin reserves to cover bitcoins promised as accou= nt balances.=20 You can prove that in your own wallet. All other scenarios imply lending (wh= ich is what is implied by =E2=80=9Creserve=E2=80=9D) and lending cannot be 1= 00% reserve. > > Banks (lending institutions) do not operate under any such pretense >=20 > You seem to be saying that banks are under no legal obligation to serve ca= sh on demand to customers. While you might be right, I am, as banks are lending institutions. > again you're misinterpreting me. Banks do in fact make claims to their cus= tomers that they'll be able to get cash out of their account on demand. Up to the insured limit, in 7 days. This is of course true because the taxpa= yer has insured the bank to that level. > They're called demand deposit accounts for a reason. They are time deposits, read your bank agreement. Not that it makes any diff= erence. How the contract is satisfied is not a term of the contract, just th= at it is. And as I pointed out, money markets have had no reserve requiremen= t and have a nearly spotless record of satisfying their obligations. > And certainly customers expect to be able to withdraw their cash on demand= .=20 Irrelevant. > > With a 100% of investment cash hoard, there is zero lending and zero ret= urn >=20 > I did say "pretend" did I not? See above. > > =E2=80=9Crelate to=E2=80=9D is a far cry from 100% =E2=80=9Creserve=E2=80= =9D >=20 > Indeed. Again, you seem to be misunderstanding me. You're putting the word= s "100% reserve" in my mouth, when I never said any such thing. Proof of 80%= /50%/20% reserves is still useful if that's the clear expectation for the cu= stomer/client. Without 100% =E2=80=9Creserve=E2=80=9D there is no way to cryptographically d= emonstrate =E2=80=9Csolvency=E2=80=9D. And even with that, investors would h= ave to accept the promise that there are no other liabilities. The schemes don=E2=80=99t preclude hacks, insider or otherwise, bankruptcy, o= r state seizure, no matter what the reserve. It=E2=80=99s information, sure, but it=E2=80=99s not what people seem to thi= nk. If one wants full reserve banking, use a wallet. If one wants to invest,= the money will be spent - that=E2=80=99s why it was raised. There can be no= covenant placed on it that will ensure it=E2=80=99s return. e