From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12802CC4 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2019 20:26:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-wr1-f52.google.com (mail-wr1-f52.google.com [209.85.221.52]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39C23A8 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2019 20:26:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wr1-f52.google.com with SMTP id e3so1953280wrs.11 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2019 13:26:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=Dj++AWuFubOYsmpZ7W/dDuR8o+2aHauGpN7PAd7CTG4=; b=I3N5YgCkSTzcjzuaARX/7X7Pql6fOwDGwJLE5TmPL72qUzAms/1SuZom//NdWWZm1o TIpmwO9PonlfB3F6cZ2hcONwk6lciyizVoOMo4VCzkoZLY/HXxZEu+MM4ZGeQF1+Ww1n P2EvauYEtj2XxGctW0thUWwjmHO9ereC4oujih4hN6BD3egy6jIMVMOoHReeJl+cQanT F8ZKNTBNTLBvE/zOV94qin3tF+J7fqBII9nW25fPrBeZRVzBH3tNhJTSFxMl1WpOknfT OV2kW9qUJvoEIcL4ej+DEdG6xjngP1HGhhS1RVy9YTIip9/QOsVpRWln1eYIn04ErG+1 8BBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=Dj++AWuFubOYsmpZ7W/dDuR8o+2aHauGpN7PAd7CTG4=; b=WvIuY3l+ZEIemTfV+/L/lZp69BmDldpEa6svL7swbICXKPKJD7iFqm6tSA3Zju5e8J 5ssdO9nBHh61FYDAp0qzTiIKjlw9MGfOSAkYetq7RczbzHVgtb6hHTMN7ItTTqECGE3N pULOna5vv9XIWuZNQ/dBb82U25Bbvd0Fai7FVcKeIzwa5fkBiloUhYO9QGkWIPJXzMCh iidIiOFGIZ4RVkgqQNgZCwZIux5LgBt4CtX+nPriV/haOBpsIrCKv+WLsceuagBefJ6O oFYD8MdzyGDsdQQzBexk1MwTD02khEV33zwVAvNrP3DZgxl4hx+ThtwdlQIvlmXUwJNW CKUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUHY96gbjzWhvAYb6iQEb6JyKsFZ/BD2JCOYzylwBL/ScCw86AN /UbxzhnT1vqefuKOAv18iIM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqznM9HLBWTwsyl/q2yBlez9WbiX80/D98a2DZ6cld9LTstEiK+ozcADTJgC3DaEqm+oFAYIHA== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4086:: with SMTP id o6mr16544279wrp.185.1561926389796; Sun, 30 Jun 2019 13:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dd6712641801d2360ece635895.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (p200300DD6712641801D2360ECE635895.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [2003:dd:6712:6418:1d2:360e:ce63:5895]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w20sm18813181wra.96.2019.06.30.13.26.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 30 Jun 2019 13:26:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Tamas Blummer Message-Id: <0AA10217-E1CC-46D1-9B43-038CEEF942CD@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_588C89AA-5B5F-4501-9A93-4521B461C3FD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 22:26:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: <063D7C06-F5D8-425B-80CE-CAE03A1AAD0C@voskuil.org> To: Eric Voskuil References: <0DBC0DEA-C999-4AEE-B2E1-D5337ECD9405@gmail.com> <7A10C0F5-E206-43C1-853F-64AE04F57711@voskuil.org> <708D14A9-D25E-4DD2-8B6E-39A1194A7A00@voskuil.org> <1A808C88-63FD-4F45-8C95-2B8B4D99EDF5@gmail.com> <83705370-79FC-4006-BA04-4782AD5BE70B@voskuil.org> <3F46CDD5-DA80-49C8-A51F-8066680EF347@voskuil.org> <063D7C06-F5D8-425B-80CE-CAE03A1AAD0C@voskuil.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 09:46:03 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable riskless or risky lending, prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 20:26:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_588C89AA-5B5F-4501-9A93-4521B461C3FD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 My argument does not need the comparison with ICOs. They were just an example that people pay for the utility of register = even though others think the tokens they keep track of are worthless. Tamas Blummer > On Jun 30, 2019, at 22:13, Eric Voskuil wrote: >=20 > ICO tokens can be traded (indefinitely) for other things of value, so = the comparison isn=E2=80=99t valid. I think we=E2=80=99ve both made our = points clearly, so I=E2=80=99ll leave it at that. >=20 > Best, > Eric >=20 >> On Jun 30, 2019, at 12:55, Tamas Blummer = wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 20:54, Eric Voskuil wrote: >>>=20 >>> Could you please explain the meaning and utility of =E2=80=9Cunforgeab= le register=E2=80=9D as it pertains to such encumbered coins? >>=20 >> I guess we agree that some way of keeping track of ownership is = prerequisite for something to aquire value. >> We likely also agree that the security of that ownership register has = great influence to the value. >>=20 >> The question remains if a register as utility in itself gives value = to the thing needed to use that register. >> I think it does, if people are interested in what it keeps track of, = for whatever reason, even for reasons you find bogus. >>=20 >> It was not intentional, but I think I just explained why Ethereum = aquired higher market value by being register of ICO tokens. >>=20 >> Now back to the coins encumbered with the debt covenant: >> Transactions moving them constitute a register of covered debt and = you need them to update that register. >> Should some people find such a register useful then those coins = needed to update this register will aquire value. >> Does not matter if you think the concept of covered debt is just as = bogus as ICOs. >>=20 >> Here some good news: If they aquire value then they offer a way to = generate income for hodler by temporarily giving up control. >>=20 >> Tamas Blummer >>=20 >>>=20 >>> The meaning in terms of Bitcoin is clear - the =E2=80=9Cowner=E2=80=9D= of outputs that represent value (i.e. in the ability to trade them for = something else) is recorded publicly and, given Bitcoin security = assumptions, cannot be faked. What is not clear is the utility of a = record of outputs that cannot be traded for something else. You seem to = imply that a record is valuable simply because it=E2=80=99s a record. >>>=20 >>> e >>>=20 >>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 11:35, Tamas Blummer = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 19:41, Eric Voskuil wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 03:56, Tamas Blummer = wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi Eric, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Jun 29, 2019, at 23:21, Eric Voskuil = wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> What loan? Alice has paid Bob for something of no possible = utility to her, or anyone else. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Coins encumbered with the described covenant represent temporary = control of a scarce resource. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Can this obtain value? That depends on the availability of final = control and ability to deal with temporary control. >>>>>=20 >>>>> For something to become property (and therefore have marketable = value) requires that it be both scarce and useful. Bitcoin is useful = only to the extent that it can be traded for something else that is = useful. Above you are only dealing with scarcity, ignoring utility. >>>>=20 >>>> There is a deeper utility of Bitcoin than it can be traded for = something else. That utility is to use its unforgeable register. >>>> We have only one kind of units in this register and by having = covenants we would create other kinds that are while encumbered not = fungible with the common ones. >>>>=20 >>>> Units are certainly less desirable if encumbered with a debt = covenant. You say no one would assign them any value. >>>>=20 >>>> I am not that sure as they still offer the utility of using the = unforgeable register, in this case a register of debt covered by = reserves. >>>> You also doubt forcing debt to be covered by reserves is a good = idea, I got that, but suppose we do not discuss this here. >>>> If there are people who think it is a good idea, then they would = find having an unforgeable register of it useful and therefore units = needed to maintain that register valuable to some extent. >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> I think you do not show the neccesary respect of the market. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure what is meant here by respect, or how much of = it is necessary. I am merely explaining the market. >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> You are not explaining an existing market but claim that market = that is not yet there will follow your arguments. >>>>=20 >>>>>> Your rant reminds me of renowed economists who still argue final = control Bitcoin can not have value, you do the same proclaiming that = temporary control of Bitcoin can not have value. >>>>>=20 >>>>> It seems to me you have reversed the meaning of temporary and = final. Bitcoin is useful because of the presumption that there is no = finality of control. One presumes an ability to trade control of it for = something else. This is temporary control. Final control would be the = case in which, at some point, it can no longer be traded, making it = worthless at that point. If this is known to be the case it implies that = it it worthless at all prior points as well. >>>>>=20 >>>>> These are distinct scenarios. The fact that temporary (in my = usage) control implies the possibility of value does not imply that = finality of control does as well. The fact that (renowned or otherwise) = people have made errors does not imply that I am making an error. These = are both non-sequiturs. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> I say, that temporary control does not have value until means = dealing with it are offered, and that is I work on. Thereafter might = obtain value if final control is deemed too expensive or not attainable, = we shall see. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The analogy to rental of a consumable good does not apply to the = case of a non-consumable good. If it cannot be traded and cannot be = consumed it cannot obtain marketable value. To this point it matters not = whether it exists. >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I meant with control the control of entries in the register which I = think is the deeper utility of Bitcoin. Final control is meant to be the = opposite of temporary which is the time limited control with some = expiry. >>>>=20 >>>> Thank you for your thoughts as they help to sharpen my arguments. >>>>=20 >>>> Best, >>>>=20 >>>> Tamas Blummer >>>>=20 >>>>> Best, >>>>> Eric >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Tamas Blummer >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_588C89AA-5B5F-4501-9A93-4521B461C3FD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEE6YNJViYMM6Iv5f9e9nKRxRdxORwFAl0ZGvUACgkQ9nKRxRdx ORxOkAf/ecRZ+E5OkkqfiWsqupZmk0HiMJd0ed2uuJZkA+/rZAdNctZVGik1RRjV Nk/d0lwz/pnkN2BCo3e+tW6QEYOFkZY3TX/SnkJp8nCAtBUVjG9Cq3EH/st6Pibc jNrClgJc3qgv5pnmns0MZ3nSCs0v0CBp5VKDpKq7EU+KsFK/YrSW1Wqhy+0iGVqz wWlQTEntQvbxgDdLR6zBaPQYxqoRwN8nC1VX4otf+hZYL2ApR59rQePgjo0MV4Hg AWVOntVbLQ4jirlJSNlzQBRKvm8wy2ocCyvXRTVsyVrqxnOJwn9xrA7UL6rCyJx2 R9PfOWElxDkUHUs223igS3npD64lfQ== =k3ok -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_588C89AA-5B5F-4501-9A93-4521B461C3FD--