From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Z5cM3-0003U2-By for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:07:51 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) client-ip=198.252.153.129; envelope-from=justusranvier@riseup.net; helo=mx1.riseup.net; Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) id 1Z5cM2-0001fj-6b for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:07:51 +0000 Received: from berryeater.riseup.net (berryeater-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 466CA41E57; Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:07:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: justusranvier) with ESMTPSA id 1E7304004A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:07:44 +0000 From: justusranvier@riseup.net To: Jeff Garzik In-Reply-To: References: <55828737.6000007@riseup.net> <20150618111407.GA6690@amethyst.visucore.com> Message-ID: <0ede5c200ce70e4d92541dd91749b4ea@riseup.net> X-Sender: justusranvier@riseup.net User-Agent: Riseup mail X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.7 at mx1 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [198.252.153.129 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.3 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines -0.1 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address X-Headers-End: 1Z5cM2-0001fj-6b Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Concerns Regarding Threats by a Developer to Remove Commit Access from Other Developers X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 16:07:51 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 2015-06-18 14:53, Jeff Garzik wrote: > Consensus changes - worded another way - change Bitcoin's Constitution > - > The Rules that everyone in the system is -forced- to follow, or be > ignored > by the system. Force is not a helpful or accurate way to describe the situation. The purpose of Bitcoin to let people trade with each other, and trade requires mutual agreement. If some people choose not to trade under certain terms, they aren't "forcing" anybody to do anything. They are simply refraining from proposed interactions. Not granting them the right to do this would actually be forcing them to engage in interactions against their will. It's an unavoidable reality that Bitcoin's usefulness is related to the size (really: economic output) of the group of people who can be convinced that it's in their best interest to agree on a common trade protocol. Conversations that feature untrue claims about someone forcing someone else to do something is the opposite of a viable strategy for growing the size of that group. Arguments about who violated what Bitcoin Core internal governance procedures are not interesting to most Bitcoin users, who generally don't know or care who has commit access to the repository. Getting angry at Gavin and Mike for providing Bitcoin users with an alternative which they can freely choose or reject is not helpful in persuading users to stay with Bitcoin Core. Making the case why the changes in Bitcoin XT are not beneficial to Bitcoin users could be. For better or for worse, Bitcoin coin users are going to run the software they perceive to be in their best interests. Nobody can stop them from making that choice and any effort directed at that end is wasted. It's more productive to expend effort making sure the current and future Bitcoin users are as informed as possible about the long term and short term consequences of their choices. Circling back to the original quote: On 2015-06-18 14:53, Jeff Garzik wrote: > Consensus changes - worded another way - change Bitcoin's Constitution > - > The Rules that everyone in the system is -forced- to follow, or be > ignored > by the system. Bitcoin does not and can not function as a set of rules imposed by some people onto other people. Bitcoin is a negotiation about the best way for money to function in the future. The only way we get people to use Bitcoin is to convince them that the benefits they gain from agreeing to its protocol outweigh the downsides they encounter. I'm confident that this case can be made successfully but a prerequisite to a successful negotiation is recognizing that it is, in fact, a negotiation, and that the other parties have full agency and the right to walk away if mutual agreement is not reached. My suggestion is to spend less time talking about procedural violations and more time convincing Bitcoin users that Bitcoin Core is the best client for them to use, especially if the process of convincing them involves making improvements which the users are asking for (or making a very compelling case about why the users should reconsider). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJVguyLAAoJECpf2nDq2eYjTPgP/A16QGWSWkh50OhSjHx7hdY5 v0ZqNvfKSm6a94o22yTQF8VZm7NEJJcNY0Vvu1ro95v27Bm37VodGGOXh4ao9gYQ ETdzX35OLWUua1e9kfEwgo2Uu2l9AdALOLK5IHyLZdtxJQwUhcdeIhaSMzlZqgEk n+gbAZXV7JdnK+oejh5s8zgfOY3MqhZC3TQBVWHWx0K0CE75rm0j4ZShYL2eKOua CmWkcEkfeugrnQQv/BB+oe1TAJoHY4bZAr+amYLZMiC8wRcGGeVBOOFykLNd4rSV DE+iiGHmgi/wrZjy/xT5kflX55GE8NNVjM2MMNOyD+gWbBn5INahya+DkDWupeQB iy71NQQVnB/5U5Yhm/oVUax+Cjj/7001cf1q2rXPcjE+4ntw5ad9oCuRW3kSUpzq C0LqEN2lbagrmk/xHSv/GQl+iWulD1mXJl63y3LdXYWno67eVYqzvRK0UB7ZSVww 3P7p8h2yuvtPtAUDyoOPn7Ghyd1U1lJWGsyffRzd2hWhEYs44cfAv6S2QWIBWbm5 j8C2ao7m6j2mirRZem+bGrN8idR/fOUIjnwqQmNIObsviMrvgXlHvORjsBcdHoKO 9Ir8CvqGWftIG5lLCJvjsnP8E3MRToo6pOsD/Ii9223Pn6DxsMvXF+IkZzUJfWDR W+t/BYV6XtsAUKI+dAly =3KeB -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----