From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YDd2d-0006BR-LO for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 20 Jan 2015 17:56:39 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de ([80.237.132.66]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) id 1YDd2c-0000WY-3C for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 20 Jan 2015 17:56:39 +0000 Received: from [37.143.74.116] (helo=[192.168.0.100]); authenticated by wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1YDd2V-0004aj-Nn; Tue, 20 Jan 2015 18:56:31 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_35146F51-4376-462A-87C1-078790603616"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Tamas Blummer In-Reply-To: <30930479.sqHpaOe3cY@crushinator> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 18:56:28 +0100 Message-Id: <12ED3204-6F51-4CEC-960C-5771597ACB4D@bitsofproof.com> References: <20150120154641.GA32556@muck> <2236907.ZtrNgikFVR@crushinator> <656E7756-5F0B-4594-B9F1-8CC68C7A5EE5@bitsofproof.com> <30930479.sqHpaOe3cY@crushinator> To: Matt Whitlock X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; tamas@bitsofproof.com; 1421776598; 2db8358c; X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.237.132.66 listed in list.dnswl.org] 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Headers-End: 1YDd2c-0000WY-3C Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] The legal risks of auto-updating wallet software; custodial relationships X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 17:56:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_35146F51-4376-462A-87C1-078790603616 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8898976F-F482-4BCE-8769-68916974A092" --Apple-Mail=_8898976F-F482-4BCE-8769-68916974A092 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I am not a lawyer, just thinking loud. I think that technology is a strong argument before court, but I suspect = that it is just that, as of now. Tamas Blummer On Jan 20, 2015, at 6:47 PM, Matt Whitlock = wrote: > On Tuesday, 20 January 2015, at 6:44 pm, Tamas Blummer wrote: >> Knowing the private key and owning the linked coins is not = necessarily the same in front of a court. >>=20 >> At least in german law there is a difference between =91Eigentum' = means ownership and =91Besitz=92 means ability to deal with it. >> Being able to deal with an asset does not make you the owner. >=20 > So what we're telling the newbies in /r/bitcoin is plain wrong. = Bitcoins *do* have an owner independent from the parties who have access = to the private keys that control their disposition. That's pretty = difficult to reconcile from a technological perspective. >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_8898976F-F482-4BCE-8769-68916974A092 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
I = am not a lawyer, just thinking loud.
I think that technology = is a strong argument before court, but I suspect that it is just that, = as of now.

Tamas = Blummer
On Jan 20, 2015, at 6:47 PM, Matt Whitlock = <bip@mattwhitlock.name>= wrote:

On Tuesday, 20 January 2015, at 6:44 pm, Tamas Blummer = wrote:
Knowing the private key and owning = the linked coins is not necessarily the same in front of a = court.

At least in german law there is a difference between = =91Eigentum' means ownership and =91Besitz=92 means ability to deal with = it.
Being able to deal with an asset does not make you the = owner.

So what we're telling the newbies in = /r/bitcoin is plain wrong. Bitcoins *do* have an owner independent from = the parties who have access to the private keys that control their = disposition. That's pretty difficult to reconcile from a technological = perspective.



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