From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1120C002D for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2022 04:35:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BECA4241D for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2022 04:35:30 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 6BECA4241D Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gazeta.pl header.i=@gazeta.pl header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=2013 header.b=tR84oi+s X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fAEClg3xqsWv for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2022 04:35:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org A51F2423E1 Received: from smtpo43.poczta.onet.pl (smtpo43.poczta.onet.pl [213.180.142.174]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A51F2423E1 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2022 04:35:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pmq5v.m5r2.onet (pmq5v.m5r2.onet [10.174.35.25]) by smtp.poczta.onet.pl (Onet) with ESMTP id 4LfL6w1lX0zlWp; Fri, 8 Jul 2022 06:35:20 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gazeta.pl; s=2013; t=1657254920; bh=tb04W2RhkjIMm+tc6xZYoH8P8OHBoEu3BcPFJizFBsw=; h=From:To:In-Reply-To:Date:Subject:From; b=tR84oi+sm9FWbYlX498rZJSlpWKr2qByho2jBbxKd9kXiCmJ1qDq0Swc3H3dfGUOD 0U/1TP8jcBmK6ZL71G1WPOTS+7z5T+HhRjs88h7u63vN3/jbLmjp1kE4ReCxdoq3QC Stmw/P/U+/5i6ctNto+EQ6XJ/Q2lCUOQKMBboxtw= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received: from [5.173.241.111] by pmq5v.m5r2.onet via HTTP id ; Fri, 08 Jul 2022 06:35:20 +0200 From: vjudeu@gazeta.pl X-Priority: 3 To: "Eric Voskuil , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion" , Bram Cohen , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion In-Reply-To: <3D3BFE9C-CFF3-49FF-840F-063B52C69A42@voskuil.org> Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2022 06:35:16 +0200 Message-Id: <164256450-0ee6752f92c0be297952fc72b59076df@pmq5v.m5r2.onet> X-Mailer: onet.poczta X-Onet-PMQ: ;5.173.241.111;PL;2 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Jul 2022 08:48:24 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2022 04:35:30 -0000 Isn't it enough to just generate a seed in the same way as today, then sort= the words alphabetically, and then use that as a seed? I know, the last wo= rd is a checksum, but there are only 2048 words, so it is not a big deal to= get any checksum we want. If that is insecure, because of lower possible c= ombinations, then it is always possible to increase the number of words to = compensate that. On 2022-07-08 04:27:21 user Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev wrote: Without a performance requirement there is no reason you can=E2=80=99t stor= e the BIP39 words in any order you want. So it=E2=80=99s certainly possible= , just brute force the recovery. If you have less than a second vs. a few d= ays then it=E2=80=99s a different question. e On Jul 7, 2022, at 18:48, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev wrote: Part of the rules of my challenge is that the 'new' words need to be in the= same pool as the 'old' words, so any ordering is okay. Without that requir= ement it's mathematically very straightforward. On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 10:52 AM Pavol Rusnak wrote: There is. Just encode the index of permutation used to scramble the otherwi= se sorted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! =3D ~32 bits so 3 words = should be enough.=C2=A0 Repetitions make this more difficult, though.=C2=A0 On Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev wrote: On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev wrote: I made a python implementation for a different mnemonic encoding. The encod= ing requires user to remember words but not the order of those words. The code is open (MIT license) at https://github.com/sancoder/noomnem Thanks Anton. There's an interesting mathematical question of whether it's = possible to make a code like this which always uses the BIP-39 words for th= e same key as part of its encoding, basically adding a few words as error c= orrection in case the order is lost or confused. If the BIP-39 contains a d= uplicate you can add an extra word. _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev