* [bitcoin-dev] Three Month bitcoin-dev Moderation Review
@ 2016-01-21 0:50 Rusty Russell
2016-01-21 2:25 ` xor
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Rusty Russell @ 2016-01-21 0:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin Dev
Hi all!
As planned, this is the three month review[1]: discussion of how
moderation should change is encouraged in this thread.
First, thanks to everyone for the restraint shown in sending
(and responding to!) inflammatory or sand-in-the-gears mails, and being
tolerant with our mistakes and variances in moderation.
The only changes we made to the plan so far:
1) We've stopped clearing the "needs mod" bit after first posts, and
2) Trivially answerable emails or proposals have been answered in the
reject message itself.
You can see almost all (there was some lossage) rejects at:
https://lists.ozlabs.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev-moderation/
So, what should moderation look like from now on?
- Stop moderating altogether?
- Moderate <topic> more/less harshly?
- Use a different method/criteria for moderation?
- Add/remove moderators?
- Other improvements?
Thanks,
Rusty.
[1] http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-October/011591.html
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Three Month bitcoin-dev Moderation Review
2016-01-21 0:50 [bitcoin-dev] Three Month bitcoin-dev Moderation Review Rusty Russell
@ 2016-01-21 2:25 ` xor
2016-01-21 4:35 ` Dave Scotese
2016-01-21 4:44 ` Rusty Russell
0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: xor @ 2016-01-21 2:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
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On Thursday, January 21, 2016 11:20:46 AM Rusty Russell via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> So, what should moderation look like from now on?
The original mail which announced moderation contains this rule:
> - Generally discouraged: [...], +1s, [...]
I assume "+1s" means statements such as "I agree with doing X".
Any sane procedure of deciding something includes asking the involved people
whether they're for or against it.
If there are dozens of proposals on how to solve a particular technical
problem, how else do you want to decide it than having a vote?
It's very strange that this is not allowed - especially if we consider that
the Bitcoin community is in a state of constant dissent currently.
The effect is likely that you push the actual decision-making to IRC, which
less people have access to (since it's difficult to bear the high traffic),
and thus form some kind of "inner circle" - which makes decisions seem even
more as if they're being dictated.
So please consider allowing people to say whether they agree with something
something or don't.
Other than that, thanks for the good latency of moderation, I guess you're
doing hard work there :)
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* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Three Month bitcoin-dev Moderation Review
2016-01-21 2:25 ` xor
@ 2016-01-21 4:35 ` Dave Scotese
2016-01-21 5:00 ` Rusty Russell
2016-01-21 4:44 ` Rusty Russell
1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Dave Scotese @ 2016-01-21 4:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: xor; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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I agree with the prohibition of +1s. The core competency of those who
provide this list are moderation and technology, not managing a process
through which "involved people [indicate] whether they're for or against
it."
That is certainly an excellent function, but it can be offered by anyone
who wants to run a system for collecting and displaying those indications.
The email list itself is intended to be information rich, and such
"approval voting" is not information-rich enough in my view.
It is a shame that the moderated messages require so many steps to
retrieve. Is it possible to have the "downloadable version" from
https://lists.ozlabs.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev-moderation/ for each month
contain the text of the moderated emails? They do contain the subjects, so
that helps.
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 6:25 PM, xor--- via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On Thursday, January 21, 2016 11:20:46 AM Rusty Russell via bitcoin-dev
> wrote:
> > So, what should moderation look like from now on?
>
> The original mail which announced moderation contains this rule:
> > - Generally discouraged: [...], +1s, [...]
>
> I assume "+1s" means statements such as "I agree with doing X".
>
> Any sane procedure of deciding something includes asking the involved
> people
> whether they're for or against it.
> If there are dozens of proposals on how to solve a particular technical
> problem, how else do you want to decide it than having a vote?
> It's very strange that this is not allowed - especially if we consider that
> the Bitcoin community is in a state of constant dissent currently.
> The effect is likely that you push the actual decision-making to IRC, which
> less people have access to (since it's difficult to bear the high traffic),
> and thus form some kind of "inner circle" - which makes decisions seem even
> more as if they're being dictated.
>
> So please consider allowing people to say whether they agree with something
> something or don't.
>
>
> Other than that, thanks for the good latency of moderation, I guess you're
> doing hard work there :)
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
--
I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value. Do you need a
techie?
I own Litmocracy <http://www.litmocracy.com> and Meme Racing
<http://www.memeracing.net> (in alpha).
I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist <http://www.voluntaryist.com> which
now accepts Bitcoin.
I also code for The Dollar Vigilante <http://dollarvigilante.com/>.
"He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi
Nakamoto
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* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Three Month bitcoin-dev Moderation Review
2016-01-21 4:35 ` Dave Scotese
@ 2016-01-21 5:00 ` Rusty Russell
0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Rusty Russell @ 2016-01-21 5:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Scotese, xor; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
Dave Scotese via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> writes:
> It is a shame that the moderated messages require so many steps to
> retrieve. Is it possible to have the "downloadable version" from
> https://lists.ozlabs.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev-moderation/ for each month
> contain the text of the moderated emails? They do contain the subjects, so
> that helps.
Yes, it's because we simply forward them to the bitcoin-dev-moderation
mailing list, and it strips them out as attachments.
I'd really love a filter which I could run them through (on ozlabs.org)
to fix this. Volunteers welcome :)
Cheers,
Rusty.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Three Month bitcoin-dev Moderation Review
2016-01-21 2:25 ` xor
2016-01-21 4:35 ` Dave Scotese
@ 2016-01-21 4:44 ` Rusty Russell
2016-01-23 5:33 ` xor
1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Rusty Russell @ 2016-01-21 4:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: xor, bitcoin-dev
xor--- via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> writes:
> On Thursday, January 21, 2016 11:20:46 AM Rusty Russell via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>> So, what should moderation look like from now on?
>
> The original mail which announced moderation contains this rule:
>> - Generally discouraged: [...], +1s, [...]
>
> I assume "+1s" means statements such as "I agree with doing X".
>
> Any sane procedure of deciding something includes asking the involved people
> whether they're for or against it.
> If there are dozens of proposals on how to solve a particular technical
> problem, how else do you want to decide it than having a vote?
+1s here means simpling say "+1" or "me too" that carries no additional
information. ie. if you like an idea, that's great, but it's not worth
interruping the entire list for.
If you say "I prefer proposal X over Y because <reasons>" that's
different. As is "I dislike X because <reasons>" or "I need X because
<reasons>".
Hope that clarifies!
Rusty.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Three Month bitcoin-dev Moderation Review
2016-01-21 4:44 ` Rusty Russell
@ 2016-01-23 5:33 ` xor
2016-01-23 20:59 ` Peter Todd
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: xor @ 2016-01-23 5:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin Dev
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On Thursday, January 21, 2016 03:14:47 PM Rusty Russell wrote:
> +1s here means simpling say "+1" or "me too" that carries no additional
> information. ie. if you like an idea, that's great, but it's not worth
> interruping the entire list for.
>
> If you say "I prefer proposal X over Y because <reasons>" that's
> different. As is "I dislike X because <reasons>" or "I need X because
> <reasons>".
So "+1"ing is OK as long as I provide a technical explanation of why I agree?
While I still think that this is too much of a restriction because it prevents
peer-review, I would say that I could live with it as a last resort if you
don't plan to abolish this rule altogether.
So in that case, to foster peer review, I would recommend you amend the rules
to clarify this.
Example: "+1s are not allowed unless you provide an explanation of why you
agree with something".
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Three Month bitcoin-dev Moderation Review
2016-01-23 5:33 ` xor
@ 2016-01-23 20:59 ` Peter Todd
2016-01-23 21:38 ` Gavin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2016-01-23 20:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: xor; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 06:33:56AM +0100, xor--- via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> So "+1"ing is OK as long as I provide a technical explanation of why I agree?
> While I still think that this is too much of a restriction because it prevents
> peer-review, I would say that I could live with it as a last resort if you
> don't plan to abolish this rule altogether.
>
> So in that case, to foster peer review, I would recommend you amend the rules
> to clarify this.
> Example: "+1s are not allowed unless you provide an explanation of why you
> agree with something".
I would extend this to say that the technical explanation also should
contribute uniquely to the conversation; a +1 with an explanation
the last +1 gave isn't useful.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Three Month bitcoin-dev Moderation Review
2016-01-23 20:59 ` Peter Todd
@ 2016-01-23 21:38 ` Gavin
2016-01-24 1:06 ` Dave Scotese
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Gavin @ 2016-01-23 21:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
> On Jan 23, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> I would extend this to say that the technical explanation also should
> contribute uniquely to the conversation; a +1 with an explanation
> the last +1 gave isn't useful.
Yes, comments should contribute to the discussion, with either technical discussion or additional relevant data. I think a +1 like the following should be encouraged:
"+1: we had eleven customer support tickets in just the last week that would have been prevented if XYZ.
Jane Doe, CTO CoinBitChainBasely.com"
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Three Month bitcoin-dev Moderation Review
2016-01-23 21:38 ` Gavin
@ 2016-01-24 1:06 ` Dave Scotese
2016-02-09 23:24 ` David Vorick
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Dave Scotese @ 2016-01-24 1:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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+1
The distinction we are making importantly requires that contributors
provide readers with another thing to say in favor of something - another
thing which is different than "X people support this instead of only X-1
people." Evidence trumps votes.
On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 1:38 PM, Gavin via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 23, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >
> > I would extend this to say that the technical explanation also should
> > contribute uniquely to the conversation; a +1 with an explanation
> > the last +1 gave isn't useful.
>
> Yes, comments should contribute to the discussion, with either technical
> discussion or additional relevant data. I think a +1 like the following
> should be encouraged:
>
> "+1: we had eleven customer support tickets in just the last week that
> would have been prevented if XYZ.
>
> Jane Doe, CTO CoinBitChainBasely.com"
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
--
I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value. Do you need a
techie?
I own Litmocracy <http://www.litmocracy.com> and Meme Racing
<http://www.memeracing.net> (in alpha).
I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist <http://www.voluntaryist.com> which
now accepts Bitcoin.
I also code for The Dollar Vigilante <http://dollarvigilante.com/>.
"He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi
Nakamoto
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Three Month bitcoin-dev Moderation Review
2016-01-24 1:06 ` Dave Scotese
@ 2016-02-09 23:24 ` David Vorick
0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: David Vorick @ 2016-02-09 23:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: bitcoin-dev
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I do like that the volume of emails has been reduced substantially. I used
to delete hordes of dev emails because I couldn't keep up. At least now I
feel like I'm able to skim most things that look interesting and I get to
assume that if the subject seems relevant to me the content is worthwhile.
My life has improved because of the changes.
On Jan 23, 2016 8:08 PM, "Dave Scotese via bitcoin-dev" <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> +1
> The distinction we are making importantly requires that contributors
> provide readers with another thing to say in favor of something - another
> thing which is different than "X people support this instead of only X-1
> people." Evidence trumps votes.
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 1:38 PM, Gavin via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> > On Jan 23, 2016, at 3:59 PM, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > I would extend this to say that the technical explanation also should
>> > contribute uniquely to the conversation; a +1 with an explanation
>> > the last +1 gave isn't useful.
>>
>> Yes, comments should contribute to the discussion, with either technical
>> discussion or additional relevant data. I think a +1 like the following
>> should be encouraged:
>>
>> "+1: we had eleven customer support tickets in just the last week that
>> would have been prevented if XYZ.
>>
>> Jane Doe, CTO CoinBitChainBasely.com"
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>
>
>
> --
> I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value. Do you need a
> techie?
> I own Litmocracy <http://www.litmocracy.com> and Meme Racing
> <http://www.memeracing.net> (in alpha).
> I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist <http://www.voluntaryist.com>
> which now accepts Bitcoin.
> I also code for The Dollar Vigilante <http://dollarvigilante.com/>.
> "He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi
> Nakamoto
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
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2016-01-21 0:50 [bitcoin-dev] Three Month bitcoin-dev Moderation Review Rusty Russell
2016-01-21 2:25 ` xor
2016-01-21 4:35 ` Dave Scotese
2016-01-21 5:00 ` Rusty Russell
2016-01-21 4:44 ` Rusty Russell
2016-01-23 5:33 ` xor
2016-01-23 20:59 ` Peter Todd
2016-01-23 21:38 ` Gavin
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