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From: Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com>
To: Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Recursive covenant opposition, or the absence thereof, was Re: TXHASH + CHECKSIGFROMSTACKVERIFY in lieu of CTV and ANYPREVOUT
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 15:06:50 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <1b6c8b2b-63ff-8cd5-076f-6e15da678a36@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAGpPWDak4=ter4UT6VHbAWyA4ckkHc6zORsX4JZ3nF6qz0tb9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 3/4/2022 7:35 AM, Billy Tetrud wrote:
>> sidechains cannot exist without their mainchain ...
> 
> A sidechain could stop supporting deposits from or withdrawals to 
> bitcoin and completely break any relationship with the main chain.
> I agree this is not as sure of a thing as starting with an altcoin
> (which of course never has that kind of relationship with bitcoin).
> So I do think there are some merits to sidechains in your scenario.
> However, I don't think its quite accurate to say it completely
> solves the problem (of a less-secure altcoin becoming dominant).


It is hard to see how this "sidechain cuts off the mainchain" scenario 
could plausibly be in enough people's interest:

* Miners would lose the block subsidy (ie, the 6.25 BTC, or whatever of 
it that still remains), and txn fees from the mainchain and all other 
merged mined chains.
* Developers would lose the ability to create a dissenting new piece of 
software (and would instead be forced into a permanent USSR-style "one 
party system" intellectual monoculture).
* Users would lose --permanently-- the ability to take their coins to 
new blockchains, removing almost all of their leverage.

Furthermore, because sidechains cannot exist without their parent (but 
not vice-versa), we can expect a large permanent interest in keeping 
mainchain node costs low. Aka: very small mainchain blocks forever. So, 
the shut-it-down mainchain-haters, would have to meet the question "why 
not just leave things the way they are?". And the cheaper the 
mainchain-nodes are, the harder that question is to answer.

However, if a sidechain really were so overwhelmingly popular as to 
clear all of these hurdles, then I would first want to understand why it 
is so popular. Maybe it is a good thing and we should cheer it on.


> Your anecdote about not running a full node is amusing, and I've often 
> found myself in that position. I certainly agree different people are 
> different and so different trade offs can be better for different 
> people. However, the question is: what tradeoffs does a largeblock 
> sidechain do better than both eg Visa and lightning?

Yes, that's true. There are very many tradeoffs in general:

1. Onboarding
2. Route Capacity / Payment Limits
3. Failed Payments
4. Speed of Payment
5. Receive while offline / need for interaction/monitoring/watchtowers
6. Micropayments
7. Types of fees charged, and for what
8. Contribution to layer1 security budget
9. Auditability (re: large organizations) / general complexity

LN is certainly better for 4 and 6. But everything else is probably up 
for grabs. And this is not intended to be an exhaustive list. I just 
made it up now.

(And, if the layer2 is harmless, then its existence can be justified via 
one single net benefit, for some users, somewhere on the tradeoff-list.)

Paul


  reply	other threads:[~2022-03-04 20:06 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 61+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2022-01-26 17:20 [bitcoin-dev] TXHASH + CHECKSIGFROMSTACKVERIFY in lieu of CTV and ANYPREVOUT Russell O'Connor
2022-01-26 22:16 ` Jeremy
2022-01-27  4:20   ` James Lu
2022-01-27 19:16   ` Russell O'Connor
2022-01-28  0:18     ` James O'Beirne
2022-01-28 13:14       ` Michael Folkson
2022-01-28 14:17         ` Anthony Towns
2022-01-28 16:38           ` Jeremy
2022-01-28 14:13       ` Russell O'Connor
2022-01-28 15:14         ` James O'Beirne
2022-01-29 15:43           ` Russell O'Connor
2022-01-29 17:02             ` Jeremy Rubin
     [not found]             ` <CAD5xwhjHv2EGYb33p2MRS=VSz=ciGwAsiafX1yRHjxQEXfykSA@mail.gmail.com>
2022-01-29 17:14               ` Russell O'Connor
2022-01-31  2:18       ` Anthony Towns
2022-01-28  1:34 ` Anthony Towns
2022-01-28 13:56   ` Russell O'Connor
2022-02-01  1:16     ` Anthony Towns
2022-02-08  2:16       ` Russell O'Connor
2022-02-17 14:27         ` Anthony Towns
2022-02-17 14:50           ` Russell O'Connor
2022-02-08  3:40 ` Rusty Russell
2022-02-08  4:34   ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-02-11  0:55     ` [bitcoin-dev] Recursive covenant opposition, or the absence thereof, was " David A. Harding
2022-02-11  3:42       ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-02-11 17:42       ` James O'Beirne
2022-02-11 18:12         ` digital vagabond
2022-02-12 10:54           ` darosior
2022-02-12 15:59             ` Billy Tetrud
2022-02-17 15:15           ` Anthony Towns
2022-02-18  7:34       ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-23 11:28       ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-23 18:14         ` Paul Sztorc
2022-02-24  2:20           ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-24  6:53         ` Anthony Towns
2022-02-24 12:03           ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-26  5:38             ` Billy Tetrud
2022-02-26  6:43               ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-27  0:58                 ` Paul Sztorc
2022-02-27  2:00                   ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-27  7:25                     ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-27 16:59                       ` Billy Tetrud
2022-02-27 23:50                         ` Paul Sztorc
2022-02-28  0:20                     ` Paul Sztorc
2022-02-28  6:49                       ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-28  7:55                         ` vjudeu
2022-03-04  8:42                           ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-03-04 13:43                             ` vjudeu
2022-02-28 22:54                         ` Paul Sztorc
2022-03-01  5:39                           ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-02  0:00                             ` Paul Sztorc
2022-03-04 12:35                               ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-04 20:06                                 ` Paul Sztorc [this message]
2022-02-26  6:00             ` Anthony Towns
2022-02-15  8:45     ` [bitcoin-dev] " Rusty Russell
2022-02-15 18:57       ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-02-15 19:12         ` Russell O'Connor
2022-02-16  2:26         ` Rusty Russell
2022-02-16  4:10           ` Russell O'Connor
2022-02-14  2:40 [bitcoin-dev] Recursive covenant opposition, or the absence thereof, was " Lucky Star
2022-02-26  7:47 Prayank
2022-02-26 16:18 ` Billy Tetrud

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