From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UZQml-000866-JH for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 06 May 2013 19:09:19 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of petertodd.org designates 62.13.149.55 as permitted sender) client-ip=62.13.149.55; envelope-from=pete@petertodd.org; helo=outmail149055.authsmtp.co.uk; Received: from outmail149055.authsmtp.co.uk ([62.13.149.55]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1UZQmh-00073M-61 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 06 May 2013 19:09:19 +0000 Received: from mail-c232.authsmtp.com (mail-c232.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.232]) by punt9.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/Kp) with ESMTP id r46J9398087604; Mon, 6 May 2013 20:09:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from petertodd.org (petertodd.org [174.129.28.249]) (authenticated bits=128) by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id r46J8vQD051882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 6 May 2013 20:08:59 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 15:08:57 -0400 From: Peter Todd To: Adam Back Message-ID: <20130506190857.GA23095@petertodd.org> References: <20130506161216.GA5193@petertodd.org> <20130506163732.GB5193@petertodd.org> <20130506171943.GA22505@petertodd.org> <20130506175331.GB22505@petertodd.org> <20130506183222.GB3797@netbook.cypherspace.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20130506183222.GB3797@netbook.cypherspace.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Server-Quench: 68a202be-b680-11e2-b10b-0025903375e2 X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at: http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse X-AuthRoute: OCd2Yg0TA1ZNQRgX IjsJECJaVQIpKltL GxAVKBZePFsRUQkR aQdMdgQUFVQNAgsB AmUbWVReUFR7WWM7 ag1VcwRfa1RMVxto VEFWR1pVCwQmQxgH fBZYM21ycgROcHw+ ZE9hV3YVWkwrd0Z/ EBtJR2sOZXphaTUd TRJZd1FJcANIexZF aVN4USYPLwdSbGoL NQ4vNDcwO3BTJTpY RgYVKF8UXXNDMj8n TBccEC8+WkQJSz97 NxUtKVMABw5RLUwp YxMaVEgGMhQfQgdf A1ovSCFePREZXTct AA8SW0kSHSYcKQAA X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633532353630.1019:706 X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255) X-AuthSMTP-Origin: 174.129.28.249/587 X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own anti-virus system. X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record X-Headers-End: 1UZQmh-00073M-61 Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Discovery/addr packets (was: Service bits for pruned nodes) X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 19:09:19 -0000 --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 06, 2013 at 08:32:22PM +0200, Adam Back wrote: > But what exactly could you prove about a node? You dont really know if a > node is an originator for a double spend, it could be relay. And for > privacy and security you cant expect the node to use its coin address > private key. re: double-spends - punishing relay nodes and miners for them is a very bad idea. Ultimately it is the blockchain by which Bitcoin comes to consensus about what transactions belong in the blockchain - to punish double-spends implies a second consensus mechanism. Anyway it's unnecessary: you can hold the actual spender accountable for double-spends and punish them directly rather than adding a lot of complexity and dangerous assumptions about propagation to the Bitcoin core network. Some useful things you can hold relay nodes accountable for without a lot of complexity: 1) Having a reasonably correct view of the best block. Make the node sign a statement including a block hash sequence (the last 3-6 blocks) and what it believes the current time is. 2) Accurate knowledge of the blockchain. Sign a statement claiming that what block hash is for a given chain height. Note that due to reg-orgs this is actually a different statement than #1 and nodes should be careful what they are claiming. 3) Accurate knowledge of the UTXO set. Sign a statement claiming that a given txid:vout for the current best block hash is in or not in the UTXO set. 4) Accurate bloom filtering; same idea as #3 5) Make the node identity expensive to obtain. For instance, construct PoW's including the node pubkey somehow, or purchase fidelity bonds for the node's identity. Makes sybil attacks more difficult, among other things. 5) Provide useful propagation/mining services. Sign a txid and timestamp/blockhash-sequence, and hold the node accountable for how long it takes the txid to make it into the blockchain. Useful especially for miners offering the service of mining your transaction. > Hmm: maybe one could use a Brands private credential with offline double > spend detection, with the reputation but not coin address of the node > disclosed, and the nodes coin address embedded in the proof. Each node > could be is own CA, providing a ZKP. If the node ever double spends a co= in, > it loses its reputation as the coin address is revealed. Be careful not to mix up the concept of a relay node with someone posessing Bitcoins. Node's don't spend coins, people/wallets do. > ps I have an opensource openSSL based Brands (& Chaum) credential library= at > http://www.cypherspace.org/credlb/ I didnt actually implement the ECDL > version, just the DL version, but that is not so hard, and its on my todo > list. (There is also a strong RSA assumption version, also not > implemented). That stuff is cool, but we should focus first on simple efforts, like SSL transport, that do not require complex cryptography to obtain an improvement in security. Of course, not to say long-term research is bad, but that's just not going into the Bitcoin reference client in the near future. --=20 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 0000000000000124d42390b0db4c125f6be87835c49dc88f1bdeba527b77abc2 --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlGH/8kACgkQpEFN739thoy0RgCfXD28ySqfhKT4V1ge851h6nPr ZRkAn1vv5TMLkyvl5uETgqxmUVz4qxgn =CfHQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9--