From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UjDDc-0007kO-Of for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 02 Jun 2013 18:41:28 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of petertodd.org designates 62.13.148.98 as permitted sender) client-ip=62.13.148.98; envelope-from=pete@petertodd.org; helo=outmail148098.authsmtp.com; Received: from outmail148098.authsmtp.com ([62.13.148.98]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1UjDDb-0003J4-H4 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 02 Jun 2013 18:41:28 +0000 Received: from mail-c226.authsmtp.com (mail-c226.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.226]) by punt12.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/Kp) with ESMTP id r52IfHAa084693; Sun, 2 Jun 2013 19:41:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from savin (76-10-178-109.dsl.teksavvy.com [76.10.178.109]) (authenticated bits=128) by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id r52IfE9r010304 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 2 Jun 2013 19:41:16 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 14:41:13 -0400 From: Peter Todd To: Jeff Garzik Message-ID: <20130602184113.GA19604@savin> References: <20130601193036.GA13873@savin> <38A06794-B6B4-45F3-99C1-24B08434536D@gmail.com> <20130602061327.GA14148@savin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Server-Quench: 02b51000-cbb4-11e2-98a9-0025907ec6c5 X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at: http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse X-AuthRoute: OCd2Yg0TA1ZNQRgX IjsJECJaVQIpKltL GxAVKBZePFsRUQkR aQdMdgAUEkAaAgsB AmUbWl1eVFx7WGQ7 bAxPbAVDY01GQQRq WVdMSlVNFUsqBB54 UGsXEBlzdwZGfDBx bU9rWD5bXhZ/dEZ9 QlMHRz8CeGZhPWIC WUgJfh5UcAFPdx9C PwN5B3ZDAzANdhES HhM4ODE3eDlSNilR RRkIIFQOdA4zBDkk QAsLGWdnBkoLW2A9 KAYlYkIbVEMYMUhQ eVInSFUePloZAwsb BFlABiMRIEQdXzc3 FktHW1UGHTtRSC1Y D1UmJQUAW2QKEiBc A0BGUHkA X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633532353630.1020:706 X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255) X-AuthSMTP-Origin: 76.10.178.109/587 X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own anti-virus system. X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record X-Headers-End: 1UjDDb-0003J4-H4 Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: soft-fork to make anyone-can-spend outputs unspendable for 100 blocks X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2013 18:41:28 -0000 --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 02, 2013 at 01:35:10PM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: > It is a fair criticism that this inches the incentives, a bit, towards > timestamping and other non-currency uses. But those uses (a) cannot > be prevented and (b) have already been automated anyway (e.g. the > python upload/download tools stored in-chain). Yeah, and Bitcoin sacrifices are kind of an odd middle ground there. It's been suggested to make provably unspendable OP_RETURN IsStandard() only if the txout value is zero, but considering the sacrifice use-case I'm thinking we should allow people to throw away coins in a non-UTXO-bloating way if they choose too. > I do think the overwhelming majority of users are invested in > bitcoin-the-currency (or bitcoin-the-commodity, take your pick), i.e. > the value proposition. That's our 98% use case. Given the relative > volumes of traffic, timestamping/data storage/messaging is essentially > getting a free ride. So IMO it is worth continuing to explore > /disincentives/ for use of the blockchain for data storage and > messaging, for the rare times where a clear currency-or-data-storage > incentive is available. Indeed, just recognize that those disincentives must be implemented in a way that makes doing the less-harmful thing is to your advantage. For instance people keep arguing for OP_RETURN to only be allowed as one txout in a tx, which puts it at a disadvantage relative to just using unspendable outputs. Similarly because people can play OP_CHECKMULTISIG games, allow as much data as can be included in that form, 195 bytes. Of course, you can't block everything: ----- Forwarded message from aitahk2l ----- Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2013 02:40:10 +0100 =46rom: aitahk2l To: pete@petertodd.org Subject: Your timestamper We spoke a few months back and I sent you some funds to run your timestamper. I'm letting you know we're going back to unspendable txout timestamps for our needs. Your service is great, but I think you have written it prematurely. Like you said in your recent bitcoin-development post on sacrifices if the technology enables a use, people will use it.=20 Inefficient timestamping is one such use and threatens the blockchain with unlimited bloat, but from what I hear from Gavin he doesn't see=20 decentralization as particularly important. You really should turn off your OpenTimestamps servers. They mislead people into a sense of scalability that just isn't there. You'll see=20 some of our efforts at 1MBGavinWuiJCF6thGfEriB2WhDD5nhB2a soon; frankly I think he is the biggest threat Bitcoin faces in the long term and will back us all into a scalability corner with no good solutions. Feel free to forward this message to others. ----- End forwarded message ----- Seems legit - traffic on my timestamper is significantly reduced from what it was before. Incidentally, I've left the opentimestamps client deliberately broken for months now to see if anyone used it, and other than this guy I've had zero bug reports. --=20 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 0000000000000046da2c6f02bf57f3bdc48a08388e0030fc4490f5fc048516e6 --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJRq5HJAAoJECSBQD2l8JH70LsH/0CYMMKm4cEeHnfs2EshCYrO NMJRF/m15BoFc/FH7EuPSKoBHcTnpCsvpbGHU52wwZXhN3B62SPY46/2GpuOdMJ1 iHUjnxU9UvkdZGJRPqZq0zjyoiPe6jlBR558eqIOJFnE0p5QHa8FMzubQaJX3Fvs lw5Vxee46xvNbWlct2Ly6vOJSNRpICPr+qRNUIEymg1xkPVYEBPnPGL8vfiaCZaY p3+anMMIay54s/ZoPNh8OgNdlLOk6N4Y+qFwnW7dOI36DjrHSscPJsAK+97yf0Ze CYrFZ627My/buO/w7dFa6TfPRoMhpNyBEHimk254tnYqAd1GEmuP9Q6StK7CvQc= =Y6M1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh--