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[92.251.83.90]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ci50sm88881066eeb.12.2013.07.13.11.42.31 for (version=TLSv1.1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 13 Jul 2013 11:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by netbook (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 819942E05E5; Sat, 13 Jul 2013 20:42:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: by flare (hashcash-sendmail, from uid 1000); Sat, 13 Jul 2013 20:42:28 +0200 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 20:42:27 +0200 From: Adam Back To: Jorge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Tim=F3n?= Message-ID: <20130713184227.GA5902@netbook.cypherspace.org> References: <20130705140140.GA23949@netbook.cypherspace.org> <20130712131815.GA18716@petertodd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Hashcash: 1:20:130713:jtimon@monetize.io::olNFetUDNs4AxRh5:0000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000001Dnq X-Hashcash: 1:20:130713:pete@petertodd.org::wg/An1H4I99kQgAW:0000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000CMKB X-Hashcash: 1:20:130713:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net::pj6XS1oX3WRit SaW:000000000000000000002K5E X-Hashcash: 1:20:130713:adam@cypherspace.org::GD3ETwchlKkl+U6u:00000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000Cdc X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (adam.back[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record X-Headers-End: 1Uy4mG-0008OA-Df Cc: Bitcoin-Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] libzerocoin released, what about a zerocoin-only alt-coin with either-or mining X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 18:42:41 -0000 On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 11:51:14AM +0200, Jorge Timón wrote: >I don't see the need to peg zerocoins to bitcoins. Without a bitcoin peg on the creation cost of zerocoins, it is hard for a new alt-coin to have a stable value. Bitcoin itself is volatile enough. Generally the available compute for mining is what it is, adding more alt-coins just dillutes the compute available for a given coin. (Modulo different mining functions like scrypt vs hashcash there is some non-overlapping available compute because different hardware is more efficient, or even cost-effective at all). Merge mining is less desirable for the alt-coin - its mining is essentially free, on top of bitcoin mining. Cost free is maybe a weaker starting point bootstrapping digital scarcity based market price. I think that serves to explain why bitcoin sacrifice as a mining method is a simple and stable cost starting point for an alt-coin. >I think this could be highly controversial [alt-coin pegging]. Maybe >everybody likes it, but can you expand more on the justifications to peg >the two currencies? Bitcoin sacrifice related applications do not require code changes to bitcoin itself, which avoids the discussion about fairness of which alt-coin is supported, and about sacrifice-based pegging being added or not. I dont think it necessarily hurts investors in bitcoins as it just creates some deflation in the supply of bitcoin. >If you're requiring one chain look at the othe for validations (miners >will have to validate both to mine btc) you don't need the cross-chain >contract, you can do it better. You can sacrifice bitcoins as a way to mine zerocoins without having the bitcoin network validate zerocoin. For all bitcoin clients care the sacrifice could be useless. Bi-directional sacrifice is more tricky. ie being allowed to re-create previously destroyed bitcoins, based on the sacrifice of zerocoin. That would have other coin validation requirements. But I am not sure 1:1 is necessarily far from the right price - the price is arbitrary for a divisible token, so 1:1 is as good as any. And the price equality depends on the extra functionality or value from the characteristics of the other coin. The only thing I can see is zerocoin is more cpu expensive to validate, the coins are bigger, but provide more payment privacy (and so less taint). Removing taint may mean that zercoins should be worth more. However if any tainted bitcoins can be converted to zerocoin via sacrifice at 1:1, maybe the taint issue goes away - any coins that are tainted to the point of value-loss will be converted to zerocoin, and consequently the price to convert back should also be 1:1? >You could do something like this: > >https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=31643.0 p2p transfer is a good idea. Adam