From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UySjT-0005Z9-QB for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:17:23 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from [162.213.26.82] (helo=zinan.dashjr.org) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1UySjR-0008PT-Tp for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:17:23 +0000 Received: from ishibashi.localnet (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:5:265:222:4dff:fe50:4c49]) (Authenticated sender: luke-jr) by zinan.dashjr.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C242227A2965; Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:16:56 +0000 (UTC) From: "Luke-Jr" To: Pieter Wuille Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:16:41 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/3.7.10-gentoo; KDE/4.10.4; x86_64; ; ) References: <20130705140140.GA23949@netbook.cypherspace.org> <201307141933.13754.luke@dashjr.org> <20130714194205.GA27202@vps7135.xlshosting.net> In-Reply-To: <20130714194205.GA27202@vps7135.xlshosting.net> X-PGP-Key-Fingerprint: E463 A93F 5F31 17EE DE6C 7316 BD02 9424 21F4 889F X-PGP-Key-ID: BD02942421F4889F X-PGP-Keyserver: hkp://pgp.mit.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart8338126.cSS8d676eV"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201307142016.48605.luke@dashjr.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 1.0 RDNS_NONE Delivered to internal network by a host with no rDNS X-Headers-End: 1UySjR-0008PT-Tp Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net, Jorge@vps7135.xlshosting.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] libzerocoin released, what about a zerocoin-only alt-coin with either-or mining X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:17:24 -0000 --nextPart8338126.cSS8d676eV Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday, July 14, 2013 7:42:06 PM Pieter Wuille wrote: > On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 07:33:06PM +0000, Luke-Jr wrote: > > > The issue is that unless there is a cost to mining a *invalid* block > > > the merge mined coin has little protection from miners who mine inval= id > > > blocks, either maliciously or through negligence. If the coin isn't > > > worth much, either because it's market value is low or the worth is > > > negative to the malicious miner, your theories of value have nothing > > > to do with the issue. > >=20 > > Invalid blocks are rejected by validating clients in all circumstances. >=20 > I don't think that's what John means. >=20 > If you have hash power for the parent chain, mining invalid blocks for the > merge-mined chain costs you nothing. Yes, they will be invalid, but you've > lost nothing. Nor gained anything. So the "lesser" chain maybe can't trust SPV. But trusting SPV was already a bad idea anyway. Note that the parent chain is not in any privileged position here either: a= =20 merged-mined chain could provide the value to the miner he is interested in= ,=20 while he sees nothing of the parent chain. In short, merged mining is prett= y=20 much unavoidable in any case. > The basic assumption underlying mining security is that it is more > profitable to collaborate with mining a chain (and profit from the block > payout) than to attack it. In the case of merged mining, this assumption > is not valid. The basic assumption of SPV is that more people will be assisting rather th= an=20 making invalid blocks. That motive doesn't necessarily need to be economic,= =20 nor do proper validating clients rely on it. The only real assumption behin= d=20 mining is that the majority will not be aiming to reverse transactions with= =20 valid blocks. P.S. How about a Zerocoin with no-reward/PoSacrifice merged mining as well = as=20 (rewarded) Prime POW; maybe with no subsidy halving, to try a new economic= =20 idea as well ;) --nextPart8338126.cSS8d676eV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) iQQcBAABCAAGBQJR4wcvAAoJEL0ClCQh9IifZMkf/iYP3CKAG/r3GPFW9/iMu2yu 43odbrxQiXcFQ3GhQj7ZLK7oqVukaGFaMvoHJWMNgXPHOAswyQnEgLpFoB8Ye46Z 8n0ojrEPLrBxNpeIXe1d1WsLScwC0ZNyyBl9jdfbsv0U+gQ/Fl+NUOVxGtBsb0Zk PTcnuGUcoRe1nRDn7V2YiTHnsM4ic7TGs8gznotWoNF+hvXwNROpz+ZOIP+6dl+q tmuI/bTBKs0JUXUzfzkuYJ+83vGlh9wWUDbnyp7JbmB2GxqutjZOaNwHElr7U1tZ wZvupPMuFjdLrkbjvxfHFstgfq2TFAgBkBognxqnNJ9ARpNDmF1FaDLI94bxfHGu //a1Hst95o1dOuQfL7RaVxGu7sfOQOIfEUq60PYV4eMNzNTWt2S70uYAIlVe4A3h UnpL/boK/8B3TX3lQ5yVUMJ1cX4GfF03hmG+2/Sk7DTfGbtKACf1VgOiqPMbWBl2 cL61YghSjGoalfNPTl6Wmu37GVHQgRo1fecSo2yNS9TiSgmuq3v65edgsXXw2J0q dgLywdOFAhsnT5YtdiITDTecwH+YLrXQkD/cA2n/vL23iXSttZ8g6ANhQnPT1DZ9 UI0jXfyzPKbWRAO7KxW0sL6g0zBvsiYlxadPB4tiVzDZ5KMsFHVuRpth2XzOh4P3 0Ap4NeXZuTLW13CTxcziSINY+9jgavW2Ojl5tngm/S054Tst0+qI/QLEGnlM4MGV BXGPSMi8H3ZrlX5QWmACtddkbjmANrsRlj95hlM9YHMmPcmLkQQYnrHpDGOlMiZR 25njsPEsStKoRh5Sv20nnwZfPVrb6JixsHm1hWQk6cw9dI95DGeYx1FjDnAS2RVR isB/pzeyU2H3ftbqUUX3SQHz7yR0AqFGvNfEMutZ9kEfwXOF69ImLKKJJhqVHooN wR9teSN2+uNXx/xzjw2tpcPCJufWAGurSe21VJ0pXWhfoBQLRzPWEajWtzJexlJb B8QFCO7uUIw0REy014CYQvqay3MBlS6Mg5hteDbV4kqvNe2LHzZGr0dd3HmyILow TV+tDQZuPtD1S3QHuMqgG3CMR8uzV1y3E3p1wuweYb0WZVPDz4/1EzGz2uw3uQ9Y 9iIk9EkCf0YLlxpZepc7pQ0KDniCF4Hp9JcXEapFtPQ7dIsAHSKLXlM6jcbh54Zd ZaMFyn8iN49hYp2cDLdpTI21TjO8/a0IyBhLCOEMynS12jPwr9k6NP0biB+enCVz V6A7KXv2HmQP+GkoAQ6wBWEE5eE/hjcnS8yGxAsP/ojsp3InoRpYrxpPrN4bBttA 8mErdrS0Rg20FoLcUhcirVOFEIzIYHMC9OW19sh24260mwUMVs8qREnN3Mf8V+o= =2Jvs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart8338126.cSS8d676eV--