From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UypOe-0004Fk-4y for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 15 Jul 2013 20:29:24 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of petertodd.org designates 62.13.148.102 as permitted sender) client-ip=62.13.148.102; envelope-from=pete@petertodd.org; helo=outmail148102.authsmtp.net; Received: from outmail148102.authsmtp.net ([62.13.148.102]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1UypOc-0003y5-93 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 15 Jul 2013 20:29:24 +0000 Received: from mail-c235.authsmtp.com (mail-c235.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.235]) by punt7.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/Kp) with ESMTP id r6FKTEPt092154; Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:29:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from petertodd.org (petertodd.org [174.129.28.249]) (authenticated bits=128) by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id r6FKT9mE066933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:29:12 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 16:29:09 -0400 From: Peter Todd To: Jorge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Tim=F3n?= Message-ID: <20130715202909.GA9286@petertodd.org> References: <20130705140140.GA23949@netbook.cypherspace.org> <20130712131815.GA18716@petertodd.org> <20130715095107.GA8828@savin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Server-Quench: 35f3152f-ed8d-11e2-b5c5-002590a15da7 X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at: http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse X-AuthRoute: OCd2Yg0TA1ZNQRgX IjsJECJaVQIpKltL GxAVKBZePFsRUQkR aQdMdwcUEkAYAgsB AmUbWVVeUlR7WGE7 ag1VcwRfa1RMVxto VEFWR1pVCwQmQxp3 fXoXD2xycQNPe30+ ZEFhV3YVX0Esdkd4 QBhJQDkOMXphaTUd TRJdJAZJcANIexZF O1F6ACIKLwdSbGoL NQ4vNDcwO3BTJTpY RgYVKF8UXXNDGj82 VR0YGj4oHEtNXSg3 IhU9J1JYVFkRO1l6 OFEmRE5QOn1aGABE GEpKASkcIF8FVmIi CR8fVkkfFnVCQDtc ShApPh9FGHlVQGJd BU1ETR5n X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633532353630.1023:706 X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255) X-AuthSMTP-Origin: 174.129.28.249/587 X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own anti-virus system. X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record X-Headers-End: 1UypOc-0003y5-93 Cc: Bitcoin-Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] libzerocoin released, what about a zerocoin-only alt-coin with either-or mining X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 20:29:24 -0000 --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 03:05:52PM +0200, Jorge Tim=F3n wrote: > One way sacrifice (btc to zerocoin) is a non-issue since there's no > modification required for bitcoin and you can't do anything to prevent > it anyway. > The controversial thing is sacrificing something outside bitcoin's > chain and new btc appearing. Which is why I'm not proposing that. > On merged mining. It is true that "merged attacking" the other chain > is free, but it is still more profitable to just follow the rules and > mine the other coin!! > If someone considers that something he can sell in a market for btc is > "negative value"...well, he's just dammed stupid. Proof of work is > designed for rational actors, if you stop assuming miners are more or > less rational everything falls apart. It is possible that the "extra > value" is too little for some miners to bother. But the extra costs of > validating something else are so little compared to chance-hashing > that miners not merged mining namecoin right now are just stupid > (irrational agents). You can merged mine and sell for btc right away. You are assuming value is the same for everyone - it's not. If I mine in a jurisdiction where zerocoin is banned, and the blocks I mine are public, the value of zerocoin blocks to me are at best zero. Equally it would be easy for the local authorities to ask that I merge mine zerocoin blocks to attack the chain - it doesn't cost me anything so what's the harm? I may even choose to do so to preserve the value of the coins I can mine legally - alt-coins are competition. Incedentally keep in mind it is likely that in the future pools will not allow miners to modify the work units they receive in any way as a means of combating block-withholding fraud; there may not be very many people willing or able to honestly merge-mine any given chain. Proof-of-sacrifice can be done in a way that is opaque to the master blockchain by creating txouts that look no different from any other txout. Hopefully not required, but it would be a good strategy against censorship of sacrifice-based chains. > On prime proof of work...for me it's interseting only because it's > moving towards SCIP-based mining but that should be the goal. Like > Mark said, "let's cure cancer" while mining. That would end all > "mining is wasteful" arguments about this great security system. This > would make Ripple's consensus mechanism less attractive. People > talking about new scrypts harder to ASIC-mine when that's the elephant > in the room... > Sorry, I'm going off-topic. > SCIP-based merged mining for the win. SCIP is for now a dream. Give it a few more years and see how the technology shakes out. --=20 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 00000000000000582cc323897a582e9368a5c3dfbcdcf73e78b261703e1bd1ba --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlHkW5UACgkQpEFN739thoxMoQCfdwzkYFayzN2hvV1VB4wjOWlV vlUAnREZCNxuBDhBKuJSAS0UzqKq3Z/4 =Elx3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2--