From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1VZbUQ-0004eE-BQ for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 07:07:22 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of petertodd.org designates 62.13.149.82 as permitted sender) client-ip=62.13.149.82; envelope-from=pete@petertodd.org; helo=outmail149082.authsmtp.co.uk; Received: from outmail149082.authsmtp.co.uk ([62.13.149.82]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1VZbUO-0001DK-Qo for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 07:07:22 +0000 Received: from mail-c237.authsmtp.com (mail-c237.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.237]) by punt14.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id r9P77DHE000921; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 08:07:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from savin (76-10-178-109.dsl.teksavvy.com [76.10.178.109]) (authenticated bits=128) by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id r9P778PB082086 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 25 Oct 2013 08:07:11 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 03:07:08 -0400 From: Peter Todd To: Gavin Andresen Message-ID: <20131025070708.GA5760@savin> References: <20131024143043.GA12658@savin> <20131024144358.GA17142@savin> <20131024145447.GA19949@savin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Server-Quench: 11d2adb9-3d44-11e3-94fa-002590a135d3 X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at: http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse X-AuthRoute: OCd2Yg0TA1ZNQRgX IjsJECJaVQIpKltL GxAVKBZePFsRUQkR aQdMdAcUF1YAAgsB AmUbW1xeUFp7WGI7 bAxPbAVDY01GQQRq WVdMSlVNFUsqCHwG ARZ+IBl6dQVOfjBx Y0JqVj5aXRB4JBIv S1NXQWkCeGZhPWMC WUQOJh5UcAFPdx8U a1N6AHBDAzANdhES HhM4ODE3eDlSNilR RRkIIFQOdA4uFz09 QR9KEzgiVUAeWyQ2 JgAnLVhUFksNLkgo WQAA X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633532353630.1024:706 X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255) X-AuthSMTP-Origin: 76.10.178.109/587 X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own anti-virus system. 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[URIs: petertodd.org] X-Headers-End: 1VZbUO-0001DK-Qo Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Making fee estimation better X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 07:07:22 -0000 --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 06:39:34AM +1000, Gavin Andresen wrote: > Yes, and I asked Luke what percentage of that 10% is OOB fee payments, and > the answer is "a small percentage." >=20 > So: there are multiple layers of reasons why OOB fee payments will not > screw up the fee estimation code: I've responded to nearly all those arguments elsewhere, but anyway... > And all of the above is completely orthogonal to child-pays-for-parent > and/or replace-with-higher-fee. Indeed. Quoting myself here: "What we should have is both: fee estimation with replacement so you can replace transactions in the event that the estimate was too low." So on IRC you were talking about very agressive mempool expiration - as little as a block or two before tx's are expired. Now if a tx does fail to get mined in that short window, am I correct in saying you want a way to modify the fee it pays and rebroadcast? In which case wallet software and other players in the ecosystem will have to adjust to the fact that they can expect to see relatively frequent double-spends of unconfirmed transactions? As you know I've already written relaying/mempool code for tx-replacement and replace-by-fee; it's the wallet code that's the hard part that I haven't done. If you're already planning on changing the wallet side of things to handle replacement-through-expiration that'd save me a lot of hard work. You're probably better qualified to write that code too; I'm not very familiar with the wallet. Worth thinking about the whole ecosystem of wallets involved; they all have to handle double-spends gracefully to make tx replacement of any kind user friendly. We should try to give people a heads up that this is coming soon if that's your thinking. Also, regarding tx replacement user experience: > Come back a few hours later and find out you need to type in your > password again so your client can unlock your wallet, resign, and > re-transmit with a higher fee? Password-using wallets sign multiple versions of the transaction in advance of course and release the higher fee versions only later if required. (could be applied to coinjoin too) --=20 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 0000000000000005391e2338afe5204414d66b1f140b172da651daedf5663af2 --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQGrBAEBCACVBQJSahibXhSAAAAAABUAQGJsb2NraGFzaEBiaXRjb2luLm9yZzAw MDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMGQ2NmZlMjAzZTZlZWRhYmNmN2U5OTZlMGJhNmI2NzMxMzdj MDkzMDdiNDZmNDEyOTgvFIAAAAAAFQARcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JncGV0 ZUBwZXRlcnRvZC5vcmcACgkQJIFAPaXwkftVRgf9EPp0jaQoPtrPXuGapZ0E5UZ1 A4BlW0oegsF6EQQJKb6cMAdyuHYFDpCfw/5+pMg8/jUkoGvc0WyG5qUscDQng+bR 4jUxps+MDoenFs+StU4W1WEyKQhtslvlultop4V3v7qWk3l8YmYJ6JzN4A6GjAGx FXausdBx9DQmM9+ltQWLb3516k+NfLxc2xWHJcFzKhCl4erq+MaIMyAJmAQKhGwv vjl2pyxiBWKV0EZJ6UnM/drKfssaMOtur5Ur4gZU+da+YUUthCnagsKf8upVsa+y bgMusXdYY7D7p6ZDxSeBhnUM+BceTsR0poCMSuLvwZb+WClLB+6dR74pX2e7PA== =bHOt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o--