From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1VhH1f-0004eg-4j for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 10:53:23 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of petertodd.org designates 62.13.148.112 as permitted sender) client-ip=62.13.148.112; envelope-from=pete@petertodd.org; helo=outmail148112.authsmtp.co.uk; Received: from outmail148112.authsmtp.co.uk ([62.13.148.112]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1VhH1d-0003rk-TQ for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 10:53:23 +0000 Received: from mail-c237.authsmtp.com (mail-c237.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.237]) by punt9.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id rAFAqj9O054639; Fri, 15 Nov 2013 10:52:45 GMT Received: from savin (76-10-178-109.dsl.teksavvy.com [76.10.178.109]) (authenticated bits=128) by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id rAFAqfgH036122 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 15 Nov 2013 10:52:43 GMT Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 05:52:40 -0500 From: Peter Todd To: Michael Gronager Message-ID: <20131115105240.GD17034@savin> References: <527B9F9B.4060808@ceptacle.com> <20131107203123.GB3805@petertodd.org> <527C0D12.8030905@ceptacle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SO98HVl1bnMOfKZd" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <527C0D12.8030905@ceptacle.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Server-Quench: 0ea042a5-4de4-11e3-94fa-002590a135d3 X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at: http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse X-AuthRoute: OCd2Yg0TA1ZNQRgX IjsJECJaVQIpKltL GxAVKBZePFsRUQkR aAdMdwcUFloCAgsB AmUbWlReVV97XWc7 bAxPbAVDY01GQQRq WVdMSlVNFUsqcGpw R0hJKhlxcQREejBx ZE5nVz5bCRV6cUQs R1NQQTgCeGZhPWMC WUQOJh5UcAFPdx8U a1N6AHBDAzANdhES HhM4ODE3eDlSNilR RRkIIFQOdA4sGHYg Rx1KGi0zHEgMQ205 KxstKRYHHVQcekw0 PRM+WUN6ewMIAwtF FkpRAShfb1cMSjFj BBlXFR5WDDxYTDwU HhovahtPHXQSXTAQ GFFMTQoGAD9EVy9T AGYVTiwoAUNhO0Ut ei4ePkBZ X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633532353630.1024:706 X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255) X-AuthSMTP-Origin: 76.10.178.109/587 X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own anti-virus system. 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[URIs: petertodd.org] X-Headers-End: 1VhH1d-0003rk-TQ Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] On the optimal block size and why transaction fees are 8 times too low (or transactions 8 times too big) X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 10:53:23 -0000 --SO98HVl1bnMOfKZd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 07, 2013 at 10:58:42PM +0100, Michael Gronager wrote: > > Q=3D0 -> f =3D 0.0033 BTC/kB Q=3D0.1 -> f =3D 0.0027 BTC/kB Q=3D0.2= 5 -> f > > =3D 0.0018 BTC/kB Q=3D0.40 -> f =3D 0.0012 BTC/kB >=20 > You second list of numbers is an unlikely extreme: >=20 > > k =3D 1mS/kB >=20 > The propagation latency in the network is more due to the block > verification than due to its network (fiber) propagation time, > bringing down the number of hops helps tremendously, so I agree that > we can probably bring down k by a factor of ~10 (k=3D8-12) if we > consider only pools directly connected. This should bring us close to > break even with the current fee size, but we should really get some > empirical data for interconnected large pools. Well if large pools wanted it would be trivial for all of them to just connect to each other... but my 25kB/s average data rate sure indicates that they either aren't bothering, or aren't bothering to do that correctly. > However - important > note - if you are a 1% miner - don't include transactions! Which is an awful solution, although probably a correct one.... After all, if you don't include transactions, you can start mining blocks earlier too based on just the header. > > Q=3D0 -> f =3D 0.000042 BTC/kB Q=3D0.1 -> f =3D 0.000034 BTC/kB Q= =3D0.25 > > -> f =3D 0.000023 BTC/kB Q=3D0.40 -> f =3D 0.000015 BTC/kB > >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > This problem is inherent to the fundemental design of Bitcoin:=20 > > regardless of what the blocksize is, or how fast the network is, > > the current Bitcoin consensus protocol rewards larger mining pools > > with lower costs per KB to include transactions. >=20 > I don't see a problem of rewarding economy of scale, as long as the > effect is not too grave (raising the min fee would actually make it > more profitable for smaller miners). That's a fundemental misunderstanding; there's no such thing as a min fee. As for economies of scale, the "product" we're paying miners for is decentralization and resistance to 51% attack. If instead only get 51% attack resistance, we're getting a bum deal. If that's all we're getting, we don't actually have 51% resistance... --=20 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 00000000000000075ed91531e07d2045b5823da050fe373bde7bb363965e44ae --SO98HVl1bnMOfKZd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQGrBAEBCACVBQJShfz4XhSAAAAAABUAQGJsb2NraGFzaEBiaXRjb2luLm9yZzAw MDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDBiNGZmNDljZDJjYWQ4NjVkNmNiY2E5OTgyODk4N2EwMmYz ZDVmNDEwNjdlYWIwMGEvFIAAAAAAFQARcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JncGV0 ZUBwZXRlcnRvZC5vcmcACgkQJIFAPaXwkftRWQgAuGdbfZK4mPr4p/z2L78/NeDx AvxpagwqbTkze/sDYqCYV/lixlCqIvq++uW6VYbNMig2PnJxqS8izJ2Azik2YU3S +xoKjpTXSFJde4LT8QiAurnHHMeR+Ixprapc3Yrve/6vAfuYZFA4DbI7PO2upNOn sl/jqqulFt0JqMNOHETKGDMWgOWqJ+njsWok7/9pIZW7wAquufOE6yRg6bYdOWeV dggp+TZGdTlmovwlJnHTK91Gj8w52LbI4gGAkkuPy6S0YR583VEEnWiQsZrB7HsI 0gSVbi5r9ZDxYUXo/8thR9ZxWLy+Z6OkWYAEzCNV6VQp5WRdaWSuRnHsla234A== =HoYV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SO98HVl1bnMOfKZd--