From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WCZI9-0007Ww-7l for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 18:39:45 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of petertodd.org designates 62.13.148.110 as permitted sender) client-ip=62.13.148.110; envelope-from=pete@petertodd.org; helo=outmail148110.authsmtp.com; Received: from outmail148110.authsmtp.com ([62.13.148.110]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1WCZI8-0007Ej-37 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 18:39:45 +0000 Received: from mail-c235.authsmtp.com (mail-c235.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.235]) by punt14.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id s19Id2o7066570; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 18:39:02 GMT Received: from savin (76-10-178-109.dsl.teksavvy.com [76.10.178.109]) (authenticated bits=128) by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id s19Icwoa085004 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 9 Feb 2014 18:39:00 GMT Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 13:38:31 -0500 From: Peter Todd To: Troy Benjegerdes Message-ID: <20140209183831.GA8878@savin> References: <20140209171214.GA20126@savin> <201402091725.42306.luke@dashjr.org> <20140209181132.GF3180@nl.grid.coop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20140209181132.GF3180@nl.grid.coop> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Server-Quench: 71be2fff-91b9-11e3-b802-002590a15da7 X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at: http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse X-AuthRoute: OCd2Yg0TA1ZNQRgX IjsJECJaVQIpKltL GxAVKBZePFsRUQkR aQdMdgsUHlAWAgsB AmIbWlxeU1R7WWI7 bAxPbAVDY01GQQRq WVdMSlVNFUsrABV4 VVlBAxl6cgVGfDBx YkNgXj5cXRYvdxAr FFNdFD8PeGZhPWMC AkhYdR5UcAFPdx8U a1UrBXRDAzANdhES HhM4ODE3eDlSNilR RRkIIFQOdA4mGzQx SxwPEX0kGkseSiMo MgduMU8HAEsUelgq PkEoVV96ewcIDQZT E1xXDTQx X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633532353630.1023:706 X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255) X-AuthSMTP-Origin: 76.10.178.109/587 X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own anti-virus system. X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record X-Headers-End: 1WCZI8-0007Ej-37 Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Embedded consensus system upgrade procedures X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2014 18:39:45 -0000 --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 09, 2014 at 12:11:32PM -0600, Troy Benjegerdes wrote: > On Sun, Feb 09, 2014 at 05:25:41PM +0000, Luke-Jr wrote: > > On Sunday, February 09, 2014 5:12:14 PM Peter Todd wrote: > > > We have an embedded consensus system and we want to be able to upgrade > > > it with new rules. > >=20 > > This asserts a central authority and gives developers too much power. >=20 > I don't quite see how, There is nothing that 'forces' me to upgrade, > unless I have chosen to run an operating system (MacOS, Windows, Android) > that have automatic don't-ask-the-user update mechanisms. >=20 > The bigger problem with 'asset transfer' of assets which do not exist=20 > soley in the blockchain is including the consensus of relevant local and > distributed legal jurisdictions. >=20 > For example, just because the 'colored coin' and blockchain consensus is > that I 'electronically' signed a mortgage document giving some random=20 > internet company the rights to foreclose on my home does not mean that=20 > my local county Judge or Sheriff are going to do anything if the internet > company cannot produce the original paper document with ink signature. >=20 > The only 'assertion' of central authority here is people who download and > run the code and submit to whatever the code asserts they are supposed to= do. >=20 > At least with the 'central authority' of the big-business bitcoin develop= er > cabal I can read the code before I submit to it's central authority, and > this is a significant improvement over amgibuous legislation or proprieta= ry > high-frequency trading algorithms. Standard Disclaimer: Digital asset transfer systems are fundementally fancy accounting systems; no amount of code can, by itself, make data represent a physical or legal entity. Only consensus and/or authorities in the "real world" can do that. Crypto-currencies are only a partial exception to that rule, and only because a scarce asset that can be transferred digitally appears to have potential to be broadly useful. Those considering investing in or otherwise devoting resources to the creation of digital asset transfer systems should be warned that their value in general remains unproven and losing some or all of your investment is very possible, even probable. I myself have doubts that these systems serve real-world business needs, but the only way to find out is to build them and see. Peter Todd Chief Scientist Mastercoin Anyway, the best we can do is build good tools. Dwelling on the underlying metaphysical nature of what those tools may or may not do =66rom a social perspective is frankly off-topic on this email list. --=20 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 000000000000000075829f6169c79d7d5aaa20bfa8da6e9edb2393c4f8662ba0 --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) iQGrBAEBCACVBQJS98smXhSAAAAAABUAQGJsb2NraGFzaEBiaXRjb2luLm9yZzAw MDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDA3NTgyOWY2MTY5Yzc5ZDdkNWFhYTIwYmZhOGRhNmU5ZWRi MjM5M2M0Zjg2NjJiYTAvFIAAAAAAFQARcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JncGV0 ZUBwZXRlcnRvZC5vcmcACgkQJIFAPaXwkft/FwgAnpcfP8Y1rsA0VwgsgzT5ygrX N1P3lost3dbQ6gotTXYJcaCbVyQpIImMiOjXvbrjLwfcEChVO9J+sFr3rxkQs0jG ux6rD941yCknv1w3ZPQK00TEKBitsh/rJI8KsW/njI8iO4jahu1abv0G+uj7v1Bd 2g1Slo9lKOv94N6o8UXs5k4hu/+1ala8wbNbr2DZ2ytAmFinUlVJvuQV7wfeuJT0 U1J6NjGKjWg3ibgL8i81zv/q92l/HH4J3C8XL/H0JONBdL2Bz6Y0YMkdt2XtSof5 kYlf4XRReKBgRA4tc0ds0WZTMTLaxNlUsGu8VYAtelgpvIXbnHZ32qvrUgmA9g== =emrY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7--