From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WSRis-0008Kz-Pk for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:48:58 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of petertodd.org designates 62.13.148.161 as permitted sender) client-ip=62.13.148.161; envelope-from=pete@petertodd.org; helo=outmail148161.authsmtp.com; Received: from outmail148161.authsmtp.com ([62.13.148.161]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1WSRir-0004kB-Eb for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:48:58 +0000 Received: from mail-c235.authsmtp.com (mail-c235.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.235]) by punt15.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id s2PDmoie061224; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:48:50 GMT Received: from savin (76-10-178-109.dsl.teksavvy.com [76.10.178.109]) (authenticated bits=128) by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id s2PDmfDk069115 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:48:44 GMT Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 09:49:18 -0400 From: Peter Todd To: Gavin Andresen Message-ID: <20140325134918.GB7929@savin> References: <20140322084702.GA13436@savin> <20140322150836.GG3180@nl.grid.coop> <20140322190825.GB6047@savin> <532DE7E6.4050304@monetize.io> <20140325122851.GA9818@savin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ADZbWkCsHQ7r3kzd" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Server-Quench: 2f1303d4-b424-11e3-b802-002590a15da7 X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at: http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse X-AuthRoute: OCd2Yg0TA1ZNQRgX IjsJECJaVQIpKltL GxAVKBZePFsRUQkR aQdMdAcUFVQGAgsB AmIbWldeVFV7XWY7 bAxPbAVDY01GQQRq WVdMSlVNFUsrA3x1 W0hqCRl0fgRHfTBx ZkRgWj5ZCkV5dUUp RlMGEW8CeGZhPWMC AkhYdR5UcAFPdx8U a1UrBXRDAzANdhES HhM4ODE3eDlSNilR RRkIIFQOdA43BDMx AhsCFDQpBgUdXSg3 LhknLFcGDQ4KL0A3 OEEwMf9/ X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633532353630.1023:706 X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255) X-AuthSMTP-Origin: 76.10.178.109/587 X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own anti-virus system. X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record X-Headers-End: 1WSRir-0004kB-Eb Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Tree-chains preliminary summary X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:48:59 -0000 --ADZbWkCsHQ7r3kzd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 08:45:00AM -0400, Gavin Andresen wrote: > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 8:28 AM, Peter Todd wrote: >=20 > > Bitcoin doesn't scale. There's a lot of issues at hand here, but the > > most fundemental of them is that to create a block you need to update > > the state of the UTXO set, and the way Bitcoin is designed means that > > updating that state requires bandwidth equal to all the transaction > > volume to keep up with the changes to what set. Long story short, we get > > O(n^2) scaling, which is just plain infeasible. > > >=20 > We have a fundamental disagreement here. >=20 > If you go back and read Satoshi's original thoughts on scaling, it is cle= ar > that he imagined tens of thousands of mining nodes and hundreds of millio= ns > of lightweight SPV users. Yeah, about that... https://blockchain.info/pools For someone with 'Chief Scientist' as their job title, I'm surprised you think so little of hard evidence and so much of idol worshipping. P.S. A year or so ago you complained that if I cared so much about decentralization, I should make P2Pool better. Your homework: What do tree-chains and Andrew Miller's non-outsourcable puzzles(1) have to do with that? What about the cube-square law? And why don't I think TXO commitments solve the blocksize problem? 1) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D309073.0;all --=20 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 000000000000000020366a15799010ae0432be831c197e06b19133028a9aa6f3 --ADZbWkCsHQ7r3kzd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) iQGrBAEBCACVBQJTMYlZXhSAAAAAABUAQGJsb2NraGFzaEBiaXRjb2luLm9yZzAw MDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAyMDM2NmExNTc5OTAxMGFlMDQzMmJlODMxYzE5N2UwNmIx OTEzMzAyOGE5YWE2ZjMvFIAAAAAAFQARcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JncGV0 ZUBwZXRlcnRvZC5vcmcACgkQJIFAPaXwkfvxZgf+LoLHylwl3YerjDnoDm3Arvyc 8tgzSS5eGtjDed2FTSpFpd2vEfZ6A8gdxUDTVLibNv4auqjAhWdCVnsaiKnQC4SH L4y4BMYD0uDebSoH7Zlj/nhcij3WaxPabl8dB3DEvvBq1+8IGKrIEV1A/k5E8Gj0 fB62lf2ynZ+50mpUg6vUnm7KEAlvI4RVLF3uliVFOO1hsx6+u6Yb0Twzg4tLLXrZ ijgySs29S4ox8TozGVuiUZCrJFpT6EjooPvsnlsEfMoXf/H/XQ4k2ykazof0soJk PtkYLmHDM7QcQD5YShQAckq+d2OxqweF0vjB53owR+CU0ExZEDK9B3Fmb7BZXA== =9OaA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ADZbWkCsHQ7r3kzd--