From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WSlXE-0007pC-Mp for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:58:16 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of petertodd.org designates 62.13.148.106 as permitted sender) client-ip=62.13.148.106; envelope-from=pete@petertodd.org; helo=outmail148106.authsmtp.co.uk; Received: from outmail148106.authsmtp.co.uk ([62.13.148.106]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1WSlXD-00006S-5Q for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:58:16 +0000 Received: from mail-c235.authsmtp.com (mail-c235.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.235]) by punt18.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id s2QAw7FF040038; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:58:07 GMT Received: from tilt ([209.211.43.92]) (authenticated bits=128) by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id s2QAw2WW008880 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:58:04 GMT Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 06:58:02 -0400 From: Peter Todd To: Ricardo Filipe Message-ID: <20140326105802.GC26997@tilt> References: <20140322084702.GA13436@savin> <20140322150836.GG3180@nl.grid.coop> <20140322190825.GB6047@savin> <532DE7E6.4050304@monetize.io> <20140325122851.GA9818@savin> <20140325134918.GB7929@savin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bAmEntskrkuBymla" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Server-Quench: 82137098-b4d5-11e3-b802-002590a15da7 X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at: http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse X-AuthRoute: OCd2Yg0TA1ZNQRgX IjsJECJaVQIpKltL GxAVKBZePFsRUQkR aQdMdAQUFVQGAgsB AmIbWlReVVV7WWY7 aQpYcwdcY1RKXBtj UldMSlVNFUsrA31w QRx5NRlyfw1OeDBx bURmVj5TXkV5ckZ0 SlMGETkDeGZhPWMC AkhYdR5UcAFPdx8U a1UrBXRDAzANdhES HhM4ODE3eDlSNilR RRkIIFQOdA43BDMx AhsCFDQpBgUdXSg3 LhknLFcGDQ4KL0A3 OEEwMf9/ X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633532353630.1023:706 X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255) X-AuthSMTP-Origin: 209.211.43.92/587 X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own anti-virus system. X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record X-Headers-End: 1WSlXD-00006S-5Q Cc: Bitcoin Dev , Gavin Andresen Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Tree-chains preliminary summary X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:58:16 -0000 --bAmEntskrkuBymla Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 08:40:40PM +0000, Ricardo Filipe wrote: > 2014-03-25 13:49 GMT+00:00 Peter Todd : > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 08:45:00AM -0400, Gavin Andresen wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 8:28 AM, Peter Todd wrote: > >> > >> > Bitcoin doesn't scale. There's a lot of issues at hand here, but the > >> > most fundemental of them is that to create a block you need to update > >> > the state of the UTXO set, and the way Bitcoin is designed means that > >> > updating that state requires bandwidth equal to all the transaction > >> > volume to keep up with the changes to what set. Long story short, we= get > >> > O(n^2) scaling, which is just plain infeasible. > >> > > >> > >> We have a fundamental disagreement here. > >> > >> If you go back and read Satoshi's original thoughts on scaling, it is = clear > >> that he imagined tens of thousands of mining nodes and hundreds of mil= lions > >> of lightweight SPV users. > > > > Yeah, about that... > > > > https://blockchain.info/pools > > >=20 > On-topic: > This argument is quite the fallacy. The only reason we have that few > pools is because each of their miners doesn't find it feasible to mine > "on their own". if you count the individual miners on those pools you > will get to the scale Gavin was trying to point out. Yeah, that's part of my fundemental disagreement with him: I draw a sharp line between mining - the act of validating and constructing new blocks - and hashing - the act of solving proof-of-work problems. The latter definitely has incentives to decentralize due to simple physics: it's cheaper per unit hashing power to get rid of a small amount of waste heat than a large amount. The former requires a full node, and that full node is a fixed cost overhead related to the number of transactions per second. Any fixed cost overhead discourages decentralization, and encourages centralization. > Nevertheless i think that is just a minor disagreement, since tree > chains help decentralization. Yup. Quite importantly, the model is for any one miner to be able to fully participate at the same level as any other miner by mining some section of the tree. As your reward is linked to blocks mined, there will always be some level at which you are mining blocks at a reasonably low variance and you don't need to join a pool to achieve that low varience. Equally your resources to keep up with that part of the tree can be made reasonably low, and that cost only grows at the log of the total transaction volume. --=20 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 0000000000000000f4f5ba334791a4102917e4d3f22f6ad7f2c4f15d97307fe2 --bAmEntskrkuBymla Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQGcBAEBCAAGBQJTMrK2AAoJEGJeboN5AaHKmrAL/1wTG0JdIZZxdLqr0oYPn0QW akwvA9NrOMH14TGOlD8mJR6lEFAKiFN5NCbzTjyn9U8+CzSQ/Y4iWvtT8s2EfOnk BKGKnNzMfM1uYyaCCIG0A6bGH17yLpu972hg9jdEIH6lg5p5ZDz7DwCPh/R+VWNl 2D2ujfh68GGzkJFb+R4ibWs8rqjd9KBTiUQ9h+T++puX+sStenk4CoP7xaHhL4se KZIzDk34GfmYIsBPe0pYJc5Lzm2eMkrW5yo2QqhhVSvEhvdSulKY+9IHrfcpKMOr 3btpbrhoXy1JqxZHgRvIN6Y+2QKDyt5Wk3ZqGijkbdqcThMUIqrmLxyVBM3lg2Sh biY9453OzXxGz8Ye4vS5cQQBAbcAKmBgogoQ1+Voi2nGJrK7N+PFT7+/n1WEBCzL gRJW48Z8/Ba0EFsj4BAR6CChb9XI9NhV2i2I0ba9qLkeXDnqeyaWd3UXBrdpQqib mrK0hePxon815olVrCqSk0YukQzjrBGWHtRDY3sQTA== =N8AU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bAmEntskrkuBymla--