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From: Andy Parkins <andyparkins@gmail.com>
To: Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Coinbase reallocation to discourage Finney attacks
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 12:39:18 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <201404231239.20202.andyparkins@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CANEZrP0EYLjkrLnzqSbdTVaTZ_gSnmoOpByexgO9=wPm9Pk_Ng@mail.gmail.com>

On Wednesday 23 Apr 2014 12:07:25 Mike Hearn wrote:
> > Just pedantry: 100% of credit card transactions _can_ be fradulantly
> > charged
> > back but arent.
> 
> If you do a chargeback the bank double checks this, investigates it and
> people who repeatedly try and do fraudulent chargebacks get their
> accounts terminated. It's not like your bank offers you a "reverse this
> payment" button in the UI that always works, right?

True; the effort of a chargeback is non-zero on credit cards; but that's my 
point: it's non-zero for bitcoin too.

> > If N was 5%, then only 5% of bitcoin transactions _could_ be
> > fraudulantly "charged back"; so then why wouldn't only 2% of those
> > bitcoin transactions be fraudulant too, just as in the CC case?
> 
> If you attempt fraud against a bank, they know who you are and will come
> after you in one way or another. But it's safe to assume that users of a
> double spend service would be anonymous and the kind of merchants they go
> after are not hassling their customers with strong ID checks, so there
> would be no consequences for them. It's a game they can only win.

You're still being unfair to bitcoin.  Not everyone who uses bitcoins will 
be dishonest.  The dishonest 5% hashing power is not going to be used in 
100% of any given merchants transactions.  That's all I'm saying.  You're 
original statement that we could end up in a position that bitcoin has a 
higher failure rate than credit cards seems unfair to me.

> if N was only, say, 5%, and there was a large enough population of users 
who were systematically trying to defraud merchants, we'd already be having 
worse security than magstripe credit cards.

"[If] there was a large enough population" -- why are bitcoin users more 
dishonest than credit card users?  Most people are honest, so it seems 
unlikely that that 5% attack surface would be used at 100%; or even 40% 
necessary to equal the 2% chargeback rate with CC.  

I really didn't want to get into an argument over this: all I'm saying is 
that things aren't as bad as you painted them.


Andy

-- 
Dr Andy Parkins
andyparkins@gmail.com



  reply	other threads:[~2014-04-23 11:39 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 90+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2014-04-23  7:55 [Bitcoin-development] Coinbase reallocation to discourage Finney attacks Mike Hearn
2014-04-23  9:57 ` Andy Parkins
2014-04-23 11:07   ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 11:39     ` Andy Parkins [this message]
2014-04-23 11:45       ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 13:21         ` Andy Parkins
2014-04-23 13:31           ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24  9:21             ` Andy Parkins
2014-04-23 12:43 ` Christophe Biocca
2014-04-23 12:51   ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 14:52 ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-23 15:07   ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 17:19     ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-23 17:47       ` Gavin Andresen
2014-04-23 17:49         ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-23 17:57           ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 18:04             ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-23 18:15               ` Peter Todd
2014-04-23 18:20                 ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-23 18:37                   ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 18:49                     ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-23 19:01                       ` Drak
2014-04-23 18:58                     ` Tier Nolan
2014-04-23 15:04 ` Alex Mizrahi
2014-04-23 15:09   ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 15:38     ` Alex Mizrahi
2014-04-23 16:04       ` Christophe Biocca
2014-04-23 16:19         ` Chris Pacia
2014-04-23 16:21         ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 16:33         ` Kevin
2014-04-24 11:22     ` Jorge Timón
2014-04-24 11:43       ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24 13:57         ` Jorge Timón
2014-04-24 14:28           ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24 15:37             ` Jorge Timón
2014-04-24 17:07               ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-25  4:31             ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-25 10:17               ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-25 13:19                 ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-25 15:28                   ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-26 12:15                     ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-27  1:42                       ` Christophe Biocca
2014-04-27 12:53                         ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-27 14:31                           ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-27 23:10                             ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-28 21:41                           ` Adam Back
2014-04-29 14:13                             ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-29 14:21                               ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-29 14:26                                 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-30 13:12                                   ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-30 13:55                                     ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-30 14:31                                       ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-29 19:29                               ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-30 13:00                               ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-30 17:06                                 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2014-04-30 17:13                                   ` Jameson Lopp
2014-04-30 14:08                               ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-23 15:28   ` Peter Todd
2014-04-23 15:34 ` Kevin
2014-04-23 15:41   ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-23 15:55     ` Peter Todd
2014-04-23 18:57 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 19:19   ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 19:47     ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 19:59       ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 20:24         ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 20:37           ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 20:44             ` Adam Ritter
2014-04-23 20:51               ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24 15:13                 ` Sergio Lerner
2014-04-24 15:34                   ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 20:53               ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 21:23                 ` Tier Nolan
2014-04-23 21:39                   ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 22:26                     ` Tier Nolan
2014-04-24  0:55                   ` Tom Harding
     [not found]                 ` <CAKuKjyWDniyP503XSw8=tK9XQW-T58j+VD6ajXCxz=HihN93mQ@mail.gmail.com>
2014-04-24 14:52                   ` [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: " Adam Ritter
2014-04-23 20:41         ` [Bitcoin-development] " Daniel Krawisz
2014-04-23 22:06     ` Alex Mizrahi
2014-04-24  7:58       ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24  8:19         ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-24  8:39           ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24  9:25             ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-24  9:56               ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24 13:44                 ` Peter Todd
2014-04-24 14:09                   ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24 14:47                     ` Christophe Biocca
2014-04-24 15:03                       ` Peter Todd
2014-04-24 16:05                         ` Christophe Biocca
2014-04-24 16:14                         ` Mike Hearn

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