From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WetIc-0000Ju-1B for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 28 Apr 2014 21:41:18 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from mout.perfora.net ([74.208.4.195]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WetIa-00084b-7W for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 28 Apr 2014 21:41:17 +0000 Received: from netbook (c-50-136-255-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [50.136.255.6]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus3) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0Likh3-1XAvGO1tJV-00dLGx; Mon, 28 Apr 2014 17:41:08 -0400 Received: by netbook (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DFC962E0C45; Mon, 28 Apr 2014 14:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flare (hashcash-sendmail, from uid 1000); Mon, 28 Apr 2014 14:41:02 -0700 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 14:41:02 -0700 From: Adam Back To: Gareth Williams Message-ID: <20140428214102.GA8347@netbook.cypherspace.org> References: <5359E509.4080907@gmail.com> <535A60FE.10209@gmail.com> <535BA357.6050607@gmail.com> <535CFDB4.1000200@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <535CFDB4.1000200@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Hashcash: 1:20:140428:gacrux@gmail.com::vrrJ/4l+UEw40/l3:0544J X-Hashcash: 1:20:140428:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net::RhXsBcD6pqJ6o 33x:000000000000000000000d60 X-Hashcash: 1:20:140428:adam@cypherspace.org::4CO6g1gaHXfAaZM6:00000000000000000 0000000000000000000000001hHu X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:OrgTtgGro7QKs5LGVJXkXjGWsjj01C9WkuQezAOoJ2H JofcndtTMgrBPfjNsk32ahOzktvrsiRRIXDf+KGHVJWnj/RRBt wFZaywKsOKRnRBVWUSKspd2NQ9/Jy+0wnCjDtxkd+Npv6/8ZyJ 5/68lwf4x1A+kKB8TxfhUEgBiLsgjzJ6OHvgH66XqubHT+3FJf pbr4BSlGx/egyxueKzjA3P+j5FLq+2uaw9EBzuXobLeBnFA/p8 3QL+Y2/DyIvLZaS6PEbv0dXoNOr4nmlbeQkr4SWyBuYA+E5gck eHjxCOU+APOcdQJr6UmPM7e9a9gsfcjA64x4m4JRr5nWGuNwfj 9krZdLxbbrVMumoLokQjxdR9mkFHmvjRT/8ufYqas X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [74.208.4.195 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record X-Headers-End: 1WetIa-00084b-7W Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Coinbase reallocation to discourage Finney attacks X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 21:41:18 -0000 On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 10:53:08PM +1000, Gareth Williams wrote: >Bitcoin is this perfect /trustless/ mathematical machine [...] > >2. the economic majority will not cooperate to reinterpret history > > [this proposal was...] replacing it with: > >2. the economic majority will not cooperate to reinterpret history >against any good guys, only against bad guys; "please trust their good >judgement." Nicely put. I agree the idea of a populist vote to redistribute or remove mining reward is an inelegant thing which would probably devolve into politics. I think the reason that it would likely work out badly is that its not provable, and so no consensus rule can be constructed requiring proof, so then it risks devolving to a political decision. Step 1: Finney attackers for hire anonymize their blocks (publish via Tor, use a different reward address for each block, and each pool miner). Demanding identification of blocks is generally undesirable for the objective of avoiding centralization and policy abuse. Dont even think about demanding identity, there is no identity in a distributed system. Step 2: people send tracer payments through Finney attackers, and use that evidence to decide to vote away their reward. (However the proof is non-transitive so people can vote anyway they like for any reason). Step 3: Finney attackers vote down other pools to make the point. Adam