From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YPXbl-0001hx-VI for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 14:34:09 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of petertodd.org designates 62.13.148.111 as permitted sender) client-ip=62.13.148.111; envelope-from=pete@petertodd.org; helo=outmail148111.authsmtp.net; Received: from outmail148111.authsmtp.net ([62.13.148.111]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1YPXbj-0007Bh-Nm for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 14:34:09 +0000 Received: from mail-c235.authsmtp.com (mail-c235.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.235]) by punt18.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id t1MEXwDW079681; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 14:33:58 GMT Received: from savin.petertodd.org (75-119-251-161.dsl.teksavvy.com [75.119.251.161]) (authenticated bits=128) by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id t1MEXsCE026335 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 22 Feb 2015 14:33:56 GMT Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 09:33:53 -0500 From: Peter Todd To: Adam Back Message-ID: <20150222143353.GA32621@savin.petertodd.org> References: <20150222123428.GA6570@savin.petertodd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Server-Quench: d59af115-ba9f-11e4-b396-002590a15da7 X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at: http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse X-AuthRoute: OCd2Yg0TA1ZNQRgX IjsJECJaVQIpKltL GxAVKBZePFsRUQkR aQdMdAAUHlAWAgsB AmMbWlBeU157XGQ7 bA9PbARUfEhLXhtr VklWR1pVCwQmRR18 c3ZdIWxydQNFe3s+ ZEVjVngVCEFzJBB8 Q0tJRzwPM3phaTUb TRJbfgVJcANIexZF O1F6ACIKLwdSbGoL NQ4vNDcwO3BTJTpY RgYVKF8UXXNDFzog SgoEFCkiVVUfQD00 NBUiYlkEAAMQNA03 MF0sQxoEOhwfEW8W E0ZQCitUYkIZSiwn RUNgUBxWCjBFRS5X D1giM1pGDzEaRHIe XRMDEwsEV2It X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633532353630.1023:706 X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255) X-AuthSMTP-Origin: 75.119.251.161/587 X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own anti-virus system. X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record X-Headers-End: 1YPXbj-0007Bh-Nm Cc: Bitcoin Development Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4) X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 14:34:10 -0000 --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 02:11:31PM +0000, Adam Back wrote: > My actual point outside of the emotive stuff (and I should've stayed > away from that too) is how about we explore ways to improve practical > security of fast confirmation transactions, and if we find something > better, then we can help people migrate to that before deprecating the > current weaker 0-conf transactions. >=20 > If I understand this is also your own motivation. Indeed, which is why I wrote some easy-to-use and highly effective tools to pull off double-spends and made sure to publicise them and their effectiveness widely. They've had their desired effect and very few people are relying on unconfirmed transactions anymore. As for the remaining, next week alone I'll be volunteering one or two hours of my consulting time to discuss solutions with a team doing person-to-person trading for instance. Like I've said repeatedly, the current "weaker" 0-conf transactions gets people new to Bitcoin - both individuals and companies - burnt over and over again because inevitably someone eventually gets motivated and breaks them, and suddenly they lose stacks of money. Keeping *that* kind of "security" around rather than depreciating it ASAP and being honest about what Bitcoin can do does no-one any good. Anyway, there is no one magic solution to this stuff - the best solutions vary greatly on the situation. --=20 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 000000000000000017c2f346f81e93956c538531682f5af3a95f9c94cb7a84e8 --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGrBAEBCACVBQJU6ejNXhSAAAAAABUAQGJsb2NraGFzaEBiaXRjb2luLm9yZzAw MDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAxN2MyZjM0NmY4MWU5Mzk1NmM1Mzg1MzE2ODJmNWFmM2E5 NWY5Yzk0Y2I3YTg0ZTgvFIAAAAAAFQARcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JncGV0 ZUBwZXRlcnRvZC5vcmcACgkQJIFAPaXwkfsD7wf9Gakpnu6R3GQdKoRguq/Ssb/i NXz2Z/s+awwa8LHuK0r7kt2461X7a8ADJJhC5lcJ15wlripkd1ht0oF5kRDG0LxP L1jPeWqgy8/ea2qWfrT8Cv2A34/XsEOvifDKJ1Ej7RZ3Pq+O1pj8yIIne88wC1B2 fkKC8HzqK5fC7M/6XdIC0p9wIjDyWXePOMdH1qDWwxueoFwqCJzif3Bxvm+ekeeW k6SrFpajm3hDm0x2lnTXVGCCIbPwtCqFzbumgtZjFihAX9Wan/Dla90/qariQ0dv hP8rYATfFToiaslJhHTX78jA4KmXFo09HH9ylZVDuwr+Cve7i1lYifN+wpWlzg== =U0S/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J--