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From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach.org>,
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
	<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Rebatable fees & incentive-safe fee markets
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 22:02:27 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20170929020227.GA12192@savin.petertodd.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <359FFE85-86AF-4FBD-9491-3528382E5002@friedenbach.org>

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On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 06:06:29PM -0700, Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> Unlike other proposed fixes to the fee model, this is not trivially
> broken by paying the miner out of band.  If you pay out of band fee
> instead of regular fee, then your transaction cannot be included with
> other regular fee paying transactions without the miner giving up all
> regular fee income.  Any transaction paying less fee in-band than the
> otherwise minimum fee rate needs to also provide ~1Mvbyte * fee rate
> difference fee to make up for that lost income.  So out of band fee is
> only realistically considered when it pays on top of a regular feerate
> paying transaction that would have been included in the block anyway.
> And what would be the point of that?

This proposed fix is itself broken, because the miner can easily include *only*
transactions paying out-of-band, at which point the fee can be anything.
Equally, miners can provide fee *rebates*, forcing up prices for everyone else
while still allowing them to make deals.

Also, remember that you can pay fees via anyone-can-spend outputs, as miners
have full ability to control what transactions end up spending those outputs.

The fact these countermeasures are all likely to be implemented - all of which
harm the overall ecosystem by reducing visibility of fees and making it harder
to compete with centralized miners - makes me very dubious about that proposal.

-- 
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org

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  parent reply	other threads:[~2017-09-29  2:02 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 17+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-09-29  1:06 [bitcoin-dev] Rebatable fees & incentive-safe fee markets Mark Friedenbach
2017-09-29  1:53 ` Matt Corallo
2017-09-29  2:09   ` Nathan Wilcox
2017-09-29  2:10   ` Peter Todd
2017-09-29  2:17     ` Nathan Wilcox
2017-09-29  3:30       ` Mark Friedenbach
2017-09-29  2:02 ` Peter Todd [this message]
2017-09-29  2:45   ` Mark Friedenbach
2017-09-29  3:02     ` Peter Todd
2017-09-29  4:45 ` Anthony Towns
     [not found] <CAEgR2PGCZ=F85yjAbZgC6NtzhpdgBL3n4M2jowN12wJ7x-Ai1A@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found] ` <CAEgR2PGrxDQE0k8WX4XXz9GN-RAL6JB51ST9Hdz=ba36gRCa6A@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]   ` <CAEgR2PFjt=ihzRBhNXbHTAJz1R+3vz8o-zRZkDA3iBo39x9cTQ@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]     ` <CAEgR2PFfSjJjkTYq+DAmTzmkHPxqhn6fUDoXTzrRebz+OoUgqw@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]       ` <CAEgR2PG5ZueHKDXbsPDEjQG7xAYBa_JAtPZo9n1V2=STC1srpA@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]         ` <CAEgR2PGPQ1e9SmoWOS3V+N9v+OWiM4g3nPN3d9urc+DfkWEJ7A@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]           ` <CAEgR2PEKkHH6+Sh8cQGF83-s1tpwQZgd0fiuNz_xyWu0mUPfCA@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]             ` <CAEgR2PEyWFO1RFohVEpcb-M7aM-8xjCFvDPeJPD4zF4yTCyZ0A@mail.gmail.com>
2017-09-29 10:43               ` Daniele Pinna
2017-09-29 12:50                 ` Alex Morcos
2017-09-29 15:22                 ` Mark Friedenbach
2017-09-30  3:53                   ` Jorge Timón
2017-09-30  3:55                     ` Jorge Timón
2017-09-30  8:54                       ` Gregory Maxwell
2017-09-30  0:47                 ` Gregory Maxwell

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