From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B176C000E for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 10:11:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0D1B606B6 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 10:11:35 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.725 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.725 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_XBL=0.375, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dtrt.org Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qxf4AUYysndA for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 10:11:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from newmail.dtrt.org (newmail.dtrt.org [IPv6:2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe7b:78d1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7D3D6064C for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 10:11:34 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dtrt.org; s=20201208; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID: Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=SihLX/3PQddTCcwKt6i0yd4I+DkXMpEMFtypUfDvLvM=; b=Q9NrC2ClLHpteNQWIUyXLLLYSy e1L6hSI1Zw2UdTjHeeBxyXKgmZOYDlPk2KHUlLAiTbWywvMYf+kPiG2r6PCGOqR6uKSj4mmECaiR0 CzZ50UiOcBXdHJPjMu7mpwlnIwy2hiq14l45Iyid94e/D3x79JPnzXjbjAFsWe1zXXd4=; Received: from harding by newmail.dtrt.org with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lzccV-0005b3-Mm; Sat, 03 Jul 2021 00:11:31 -1000 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2021 00:05:40 -1000 From: "David A. Harding" To: Craig Raw Message-ID: <20210703100540.pr3nsgjhox26hhic@ganymede> References: <1eb7b635-094c-a583-7dc0-21cea58ed1fb@achow101.com> <20210703032405.j3mru5rbag5sbfil@ganymede> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sonzqzhfgr6ihk2n" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposals for Output Script Descriptors X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2021 10:11:36 -0000 --sonzqzhfgr6ihk2n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 03, 2021 at 10:35:48AM +0200, Craig Raw wrote: > There is a downside to using "h"/"H" from a UX perspective - taking up mo= re > space=20 Is this a serious concern of yours? An apostrophe is 1/2 en; an "h" is 1 en; the following descriptor contains three hardened derivations in 149 characters; assuming the average non-'/h character width is 1.5 en, the difference between 207 en and 208.5 en is barely more than half a percent. pkh([d34db33f/44h/0h/0h]xpub6ERApfZwUNrhLCkDtcHTcxd75RbzS1ed54G1LkBUHQV= HQKqhMkhgbmJbZRkrgZw4koxb5JaHWkY4ALHY2grBGRjaDMzQLcgJvLJuZZvRcEL/1/*)#ml40v= 0wf Here's a direct visual comparison: https://gist.github.com/harding/2fbbf2bf= dce04c3e4110082f03ae3c80 > appearing as alphanumeric characters similar to the path numbers First, I think you'd have to be using an awful font to confuse "h" with any arabic numeral. Second, avoiding transcription errors is exactly why descriptors now have checksums. > they make derivation paths and descriptors more difficult to read. The example descriptor pasted above looks equally (un)readable to me whether it uses ' or h. > Also, although not as important, less efficient when making metal > backups. I think many metal backup schemes are using stamps or punch grids that are fixed-width in nature, so there's no difference either way. (And you can argue that h is better since it's part of both the base58check and bech32 character sets, so you already need a stamp or a grid row for it---but ' is otherwise unused, so a stamp or grid row for it would be special). But even if people are manually etching descriptors into metal, we're back to the original point where we're looking at something like a 0.7% difference in "efficiency". By comparison, the Bitcoin Core issue I cited in my earlier post contains several examples of actual users needing technical support because they tried to use '-containing descriptors in a bourne-style shell. (And I've personally lost time to that class of problems.) In the worst case, a shell-quoting accident can cause loss of money by sending bitcoins to the descriptor for a key your hardware signing device won't sign for. I think these problems are much more serious than using a tiny bit of extra space in a GUI or on a physical backup medium. -Dave --sonzqzhfgr6ihk2n Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEgxUkqkMp0LnoXjCr2dtBqWwiadMFAmDgNnMACgkQ2dtBqWwi adOvaBAAmgDioxZSlwtO2vhGjJ7bXDrPb6uSh7zAyDYx4PRXpFqS+9f8IhUJvlFJ n72+Pl7DGHmxhoH7IdaEYGBhIjKU4lqm5n4lgZwKF1sJmW8nxG/xs+sXGLdRd+d+ hpDPDLpTRcSFR7cnybMq7axtN64l143BrIWCZFsIiV7tSa4SpUzdfOWmpsQwrlqj qv/PmN0Lb4uQNZMcoVSmIAfvi6RkGrPRAgHR/rYMy8zX4WwEQdnZI7kBCOn2lHBN HrknLU8hX0P7pRHnzC+S6J/BJYE8zyRabFC/r32ZGTMix0EMFydgc+qKGlvYrvsC OEeDJmqePuZWcTu0X4dzaB9aWxIpbgVzCQwbTnHBRuidanOhm7HkG3hgtcoypAxL wfJ+XqyCGw+54XBakJV6SVmZk+GHqPJib+LjeT65pyxACEUgDXiKhm5My0nbETe2 IO484sIDsvx6siM7PvX1pggs3JEpXQ4cpZT18GKMd/aitBqMaAcA+QWwew3ZlRFn h6TEnrYfGvT1tZ4A1NE0A+ASgukVy9V1aQEDg14WR4TW+sJmKYNjc3qumPxSQ0wV ppYti9HAJRowQM1Ato0wCimpcLgm82aHa502YFvSNFgE0ISQb9R3bVP9asAwSH7f cMEbJECTcAZqcv2tlWvejuWibclVnRyRaipvCcg4GW2vAJVVuTk= =o8yk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sonzqzhfgr6ihk2n--