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From: Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>
To: Bastien TEINTURIER <bastien@acinq.fr>,
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
	<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Improving RBF Policy
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 11:56:37 +1000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20220201015637.GA4302@erisian.com.au> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CACdvm3P1co1HDFKNxpHRe_JX_UPNw_P5qgL5cHCM=Qs+kR=B_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 04:57:52PM +0100, Bastien TEINTURIER via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> I'd like to propose a different way of looking at descendants that makes
> it easier to design the new rules. The way I understand it, limiting the
> impact on descendant transactions is only important for DoS protection,
> not for incentive compatibility. I would argue that after evictions,
> descendant transactions will be submitted again (because they represent
> transactions that people actually want to make),

I think that's backwards: we're trying to discourage people from wasting
the network's bandwidth, which they would do by publishing transactions
that will never get confirmed -- if they were to eventually get confirmed
it wouldn't be a waste of bandwith, after all. But if the original
descendent txs were that sort of spam, then they may well not be
submitted again if the ancestor tx reaches a fee rate that's actually
likely to confirm.

I wonder sometimes if it could be sufficient to just have a relay rate
limit and prioritise by ancestor feerate though. Maybe something like:

 - instead of adding txs to each peers setInventoryTxToSend immediately,
   set a mempool flag "relayed=false"

 - on a time delay, add the top N (by fee rate) "relayed=false" txs to
   each peer's setInventoryTxToSend and mark them as "relayed=true";
   calculate how much kB those txs were, and do this again after
   SIZE/RATELIMIT seconds

 - don't include "relayed=false" txs when building blocks?

 - keep high-feerate evicted txs around for a while in case they get
   mined by someone else to improve compact block relay, a la the
   orphan pool?

That way if the network is busy, any attempt to do low fee rate tx spam
will just cause those txs to sit as relayed=false until they're replaced
or the network becomes less busy and they're worth relaying. And your
actual mempool accept policy can just be "is this tx a higher fee rate
than the txs it replaces"...

> Even if bitcoin core releases a new version with updated RBF rules, as a
> wallet you'll need to keep using the old rules for a long time if you
> want to be safe.

All you need is for there to be *a* path that follows the new relay rules
and gets from your node/wallet to perhaps 10% of hashpower, which seems
like something wallet providers could construct relatively quickly?

Cheers,
aj



  reply	other threads:[~2022-02-01  1:56 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 25+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2022-01-27 13:42 [bitcoin-dev] Improving RBF Policy Gloria Zhao
2022-01-28  1:35 ` Jeremy
2022-01-30 22:53 ` Antoine Riard
2022-01-31 15:57   ` Bastien TEINTURIER
2022-02-01  1:56     ` Anthony Towns [this message]
2022-02-05 13:21     ` Michael Folkson
2022-02-07 10:22       ` Bastien TEINTURIER
2022-02-07 11:16         ` Gloria Zhao
2022-02-08  4:58           ` Anthony Towns
2022-03-09 15:09             ` Gloria Zhao
2022-03-11 16:22               ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-12  8:18                 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-14 10:29                   ` Gloria Zhao
2022-03-15  1:43                     ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-17  2:02               ` Antoine Riard
2022-03-17 15:59                 ` Billy Tetrud
     [not found] <mailman.19693.1643292568.8511.bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
2022-01-31 22:54 ` [bitcoin-dev] Improving RBF policy Bram Cohen
2022-02-01  0:08   ` Eric Voskuil
2022-02-01  8:32     ` Bram Cohen
2022-02-01 19:44       ` Eric Voskuil
2022-02-01  0:42   ` Antoine Riard
2022-02-01  2:47 [bitcoin-dev] Improving RBF Policy Prayank
2022-02-01  9:30 ` Bastien TEINTURIER
2022-02-02 10:21   ` Anthony Towns
2022-02-09 17:57 lisa neigut

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