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[91.143.83.7]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-4408d059ef2si3570435e9.1.2025.04.28.06.30.09 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 28 Apr 2025 06:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pithosian@i2pmail.org designates 91.143.83.7 as permitted sender) client-ip=91.143.83.7; Received: from i2prouter.i2p.net ([81.7.8.99] helo=smtp.postman.i2p) by mail.i2pproject.net with esmtp (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1u9OYg-00ATsD-1i for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; Mon, 28 Apr 2025 15:30:08 +0200 X-Mailer: smtp.postman.i2p - Official I2P Mailer From: pithosian To: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Unbreaking testnet4 In-Reply-To: <20250428110655.D4A1C7C0AE9@smtp.postman.i2p> References: <5c13e130-aaa2-4866-be26-7498100e868b@murch.one> <7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29@murch.one> <672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508d39cfd7dn@googlegroups.com> <20250428110655.D4A1C7C0AE9@smtp.postman.i2p> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.103.X on milter.postman.i2p Message-Id: <20250428114858.46B477C1126@smtp.postman.i2p> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2025 11:48:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Original-Sender: pithosian@i2pmail.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pithosian@i2pmail.org designates 91.143.83.7 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pithosian@i2pmail.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 22:54:54 +0000 (UTC) Jameson Lopp wrote: > I'd suggest simply disabling the halving logic and making it a > perpetual 50 TBTC issuance. At that rate, it would still take ~8 > years or so to surpass the 21M limit and I'd think that testnets > should be reset more frequently than that. On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 11:06:55 +0000 (UTC) Jameson Lopp wrote: > Encoding an "end of life date" into testnets is actually an > interesting idea worth discussing. As far as I'm aware it's never > been done before on any network. What about having the halving act as a reset? Eg: don't reduce the mining reward AND disallow spends of UTXOs from before the last halving. > On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 2:11=E2=80=AFAM Saint Wenhao > wrote: >=20 > > > Demurrage might be asking a bit much in terms of deviation. > > > > If that's the case, then why signing all blocks in signet is not > > "too much"? > > >=20 > Because signet isn't testnet? It gives up permissionless block > creation in return for predictability. >=20 >=20 > > Or why unlimited supply is not "too much"? > > >=20 > It might be, but it might not be, given that the point of testnet is > for coins to be free for developers to acquire and use without fear of > financial loss. Thus scarcity isn't really an inviolable property of > testnet. >=20 >=20 > > All of these changes were put in the same basket of "Require > > unanimous consent", so why one kind of change is better or worse > > than the others? All of them deviates from the mainnet, and we > > probably wouldn't want anything like that on the original chain > > anyway. > > > > > I'd think that testnets should be reset more frequently than that. > > > > Then why don't we put any kind of reset logic into testnet5 > > consensus rules? Because when nothing like that is present, then > > testnets can potentially run forever. Testnet3 is becoming an > > altcoin, and new testnets will also be, if no significant changes > > will be made. Signet is not traded yet, mainly because of > > centralized mining, but there already are centralized altcoin > > federations, so it may change in the future. > > > > > Encoding an "end of life date" into testnets is actually an > interesting idea worth discussing. As far as I'm aware it's never > been done before on any network. >=20 > And again, the word "reset" should be replaced by "abandon", unless > you > > really want to reorganize the whole old chain of some existing > > testnet, by producing a stronger alternative chain in testnet5, > > which would replace the old network in a backward-compatible way, > > by mining everything on top of the same Genesis Block, and > > eventually producing a bigger chainwork. > > > > pon., 28 kwi 2025 o 00:50 Jameson Lopp > > napisa=C5=82(a): > > > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 12:47=E2=80=AFPM Saint Wenhao > >> wrote: > >> > >>> What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 consensus rules? > >>> > >> In general it seems desirable for a testnet to be as close as > >> possible to mainnet's rules. Demurrage might be asking a bit much > >> in terms of deviation. > >> > >> I'd suggest simply disabling the halving logic and making it a > >> perpetual 50 TBTC issuance. At that rate, it would still take ~8 > >> years or so to surpass the 21M limit and I'd think that testnets > >> should be reset more frequently than that. > >> > >>> > >>> Testnet coins were supposed to be worthless. But it failed in both > >>> testnet3 and testnet4. In the meanwhile, signet was introduced, > >>> to make a more stable test network. However, signing blocks was > >>> listed on wiki page https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes > >>> as something, that "Require unanimous consent". And, as the > >>> history can tell us, people still wanted to test mining anyway, > >>> which is why testnet3 and testnet4 have much more chainwork than > >>> signet (and when it comes to signet, sending signed-but-unmined > >>> blocks to the miners was never implemented, so they had no chance > >>> to provide more hashing power). > >>> > >>> Another kind of change on the list, that would require consent, > >>> was increasing the total number of coins beyond 21 million. But > >>> then, testing supply limits would be harder, and it could cause > >>> integer overflows in some cases. But: in all test networks, > >>> including testnet3, testnet4, and signet, there was never a > >>> problem of "not enough coins for miners", so that change probably > >>> wouldn't solve any problems (and seeing it in action would take > >>> years anyway; testnet4 is still far from the first halving, and > >>> it is traded anyway, so that change won't fix it). > >>> > >>> Then, we have the third option, which was not yet tried in test > >>> networks: demurrage. There are two main options: burning coins, or > >>> re-assigning them to someone else. To make a soft-fork out of it, > >>> re-assigning would be backward-incompatible, so it is probably > >>> easier to just implement burning, and just treat all coins older > >>> than N blocks in the same way, as OP_RETURN, by simply > >>> invalidating transactions spending them on consensus level. > >>> > >>> Also, when it comes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be > >>> possible to automatically remove things from the UTXO set, then > >>> it would make Initial Blockchain Download easier, just because > >>> new nodes wouldn't need to synchronize everything, if old coins > >>> would be automatically invalidated. In practice, all nodes could > >>> be just running in pruned mode all the time, and everything > >>> beyond the pruning point, could be simply ignored on consensus > >>> level (which would also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And > >>> then, if we would keep for example the last 2,016 blocks, then > >>> the whole chain would never take more than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB > >>> of storage, and that's all we would need to send during Initial > >>> Blockchain Download to other nodes. > >>> > >>> poniedzia=C5=82ek, 31 marca 2025 o 22:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinsot > >>> napisa=C5=82(a): > >>> > >>>> Good point on not having the flag day on a holiday. One or two > >>>> weeks sounds good to me. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later, > >>>> 2026-01-08 > >>>> > instead. > >>>> > > >>>> > -Murch > >>>> > > >>>> > On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> > > Hey Antoine and everyone, > >>>> > > > >>>> > > What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute > >>>> > > difficulty exception is now exploited perpetually, it > >>>> > > doesn=E2=80=99t serve its > >>>> intended > >>>> > > purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins > >>>> easily or > >>>> > > confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, > >>>> > > it would > >>>> be > >>>> > > better to not have it at all. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > On 2025-03-18 07:29, 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin > >>>> > > Development > >>>> Mailing > >>>> > > List wrote: > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset > >>>> > > > rule from testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on > >>>> > > > 2026-01-01. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday in m= any > >>>> > > places > >>>> to > >>>> > > avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-01 > >>>> > > instead? > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Cheers, > >>>> > > Murch > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > -- > >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > >>>> > Google > >>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from > >>>> > it, > >>>> send an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com. > >>>> > To view this discussion visit > >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9= -2506a2410b29%40murch.one. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > >>> send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >>> To view this discussion visit > >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-= 4508d39cfd7dn%40googlegroups.com > >>> > >>> . > >>> > >> >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. 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