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[108.44.242.56]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d75a77b69052e-4a994a931desm103327241cf.68.2025.07.09.13.05.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Jul 2025 13:05:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Rijndael Message-Id: <2273A82E-F515-4288-8C94-9768B10808C2@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D8C9277C-A980-491C-9857-1B2FF4095095" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.600.51.1.1\)) Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] A Taproot-native (re-)bindable transaction bundle proposal Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 16:05:41 -0400 In-Reply-To: <682337FB-F451-459F-8B4C-56E61C49FA4F@gmail.com> Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List To: Greg Sanders References: <26b96fb1-d916-474a-bd23-920becc3412cn@googlegroups.com> <682337FB-F451-459F-8B4C-56E61C49FA4F@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.600.51.1.1) X-Original-Sender: rot13maxi@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=Xa8RaElX; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rot13maxi@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::832 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=rot13maxi@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --Apple-Mail=_D8C9277C-A980-491C-9857-1B2FF4095095 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey Greg (again), I think I answered my own question: the TEMPLATEHASH commitment is a subset= of the bip341 common signature message, which does not commit to number of= inputs so this doesnt either. The sequences commitment _should_ implicitly= fix the number of inputs.=20 Rijndael > On Jul 9, 2025, at 3:59=E2=80=AFPM, Rijndael wrote: >=20 > Hey Greg, >=20 > The CTV commitment includes the number of inputs. I notice that the TEMPL= ATEHASH commitment does not. What=E2=80=99s the rationale there? >=20 > Thanks,=20 >=20 > Rijndael >=20 >> On Jul 9, 2025, at 2:19=E2=80=AFPM, Greg Sanders = wrote: >>=20 >> Hello all, >>=20 >> This is a bit of a follow-up from "What's a good stopping point? ... CTV= /CSFS..." from [^1] >>=20 >> > There has been several objections to this proposal, which we can group= into three categories: >> exploration of alternatives, demonstration of usage, and design of the o= perations to achieve these capabilities >>=20 >> For this e-mail I would like to address the third point proactively: des= ign of the operations to achieve these capabilities. >>=20 >> Antoine Poinsot, Steven Roose, and I have been working on a familiar, ye= t concrete technical proposal that focuses on three well-understood capabil= ities: >>=20 >> 1. "Next transaction" capability, ala BIP119 >> 2. "Verify signature of message on stack", ala BIP348 >> 3. "Push taproot internal key onto stack", ala BIP349 >>=20 >> These first two capabilities can offer radical simplifications >> to well-understood systems when combined. The third is a simple >> update that dovetails with the first two. >>=20 >> The BIP text is here(https://github.com/instagibbs/bips/blob/bip_op_temp= latehash/bip-templatehash-csfs-ik.md) and PR here(https://github.com/instag= ibbs/bips/pull/1), with full motivation for this particular bundle and rati= onale discussing alternatives. Our main contribution is a fully specified `= OP_TEMPLATEHASH` as a drop-in replacement for BIP119 `OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIF= Y`. `OP_TEMPLATEHASH` is a simpler and more modern implementation of the "n= ext transaction" capability. It differs in committing to the Taproot annex = and being otherwise Taproot native, which allows us to: >>=20 >> - Use the `OP_SUCCESS` upgrade hooks in place of legacy `OP_NOP`s and be= able to push the template hash on the stack making the flagship use case o= f rebindable signatures more efficient. >> - Re-use the existing pre-computed Taproot sighash fields only instead o= f introducing new ones (substantially simplifying the implementation and re= view of the specifications). >> - Not commit to the spending transaction's scriptSigs (which are both un= ecessary and may incentivize ad-hoc uses of legacy input scripts as program= s). >> - Not unnecessarily modify the less well-understood legacy Script. >>=20 >> Another notable difference is the lack of "bare CTV" analogue, which is = implemented here(https://github.com/instagibbs/bitcoin/tree/p2th) but left = out of the bundle due to lack of demonstrated utility. >>=20 >> The BIP for `OP_TEMPLATEHASH` is here(https://github.com/instagibbs/bips= /blob/bip_op_templatehash/bip-templatehash.md) and a complete implementatio= n is provided here(https://github.com/instagibbs/bitcoin/pull/3). The bundl= e itself is heavily inspired by "LNHANCE"(https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/lnha= nce-bips-and-implementation/376). >>=20 >> We are hopeful that an opcode/implementation-focused discussion can be h= eld >> concurrently with other efforts such as discussions as to whether >> or not this capability set is a good stopping point, including whether >> this bundle is worth implementing on its own at all, as well as what >> level of assurances we should have as far as tooling and proof of concep= ts >> is concerned. >>=20 >> Best, >> Greg >>=20 >> (1) https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/-qJc1EWQzY0 >>=20 >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com . >> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoind= ev/26b96fb1-d916-474a-bd23-920becc3412cn%40googlegroups.com . >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 2273A82E-F515-4288-8C94-9768B10808C2%40gmail.com. --Apple-Mail=_D8C9277C-A980-491C-9857-1B2FF4095095 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Hey Greg (again),

<= div>I think I answered my own question: the TEMPLATEHASH commitment is a su= bset of the bip341 common signature message, which does not commit to numbe= r of inputs so this doesnt either. The sequences commitment _should_ implic= itly fix the number of inputs. 

Rijndael


On Jul 9, 2025= , at 3:59=E2=80=AFPM, Rijndael <rot13maxi@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Greg,
The CTV commitment includes the number of inputs. I notice= that the TEMPLATEHASH commitment does not. What=E2=80=99s the rationale th= ere?

Thanks, 

Rijnda= el

On Jul 9, 2025, at 2:19=E2=80=AFPM, Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gma= il.com> wrote:

Hello a= ll,

This is a bit of a follow-up from "What's a good stopping point?= ... CTV/CSFS..." from [^1]

> There has been several objections t= o this proposal, which we can group into three categories:
exploration o= f alternatives, demonstration of usage, and design of the operations to ach= ieve these capabilities

For this e-mail I would like to address the = third point proactively: design of the operations to achieve these capabili= ties.

Antoine Poinsot, Steven Roose, and I have been working on a fa= miliar, yet concrete technical proposal that focuses on three well-understo= od capabilities:

1. "Next transaction" capability, ala BIP119
2. = "Verify signature of message on stack", ala BIP348
3. "Push taproot inte= rnal key onto stack", ala BIP349

These first two capabilities can of= fer radical simplifications
to well-understood systems when combined. Th= e third is a simple
update that dovetails with the first two.

The= BIP text is here(https://github.com/instagibbs/bips/blob/bip_op_templateha= sh/bip-templatehash-csfs-ik.md) and PR here(https://github.com/instagibbs/b= ips/pull/1), with full motivation for this particular bundle and rationale = discussing alternatives. Our main contribution is a fully specified `OP_TEM= PLATEHASH` as a drop-in replacement for BIP119 `OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY`. `O= P_TEMPLATEHASH` is a simpler and more modern implementation of the "next tr= ansaction" capability. It differs in committing to the Taproot annex and be= ing otherwise Taproot native, which allows us to:

- Use the `OP_SUC= CESS` upgrade hooks in place of legacy `OP_NOP`s and be able to push the te= mplate hash on the stack making the flagship use case of rebindable signatu= res more efficient.
- Re-use the existing pre-computed Taproot sighash f= ields only instead of introducing new ones (substantially simplifying the i= mplementation and review of the specifications).
- Not commit to the spe= nding transaction's scriptSigs (which are both unecessary and may incentivi= ze ad-hoc uses of legacy input scripts as programs).
- Not unnecessarily= modify the less well-understood legacy Script.

Another notable diff= erence is the lack of "bare CTV" analogue, which is implemented here(https:= //github.com/instagibbs/bitcoin/tree/p2th) but left out of the bundle due t= o lack of demonstrated utility.

The BIP for `OP_TEMPLATEHASH` is her= e(https://github.com/instagibbs/bips/blob/bip_op_templatehash/bip-templateh= ash.md) and a complete implementation is provided here(https://github.com/i= nstagibbs/bitcoin/pull/3). The bundle itself is heavily inspired by "LNHANC= E"(https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/lnhance-bips-and-implementation/376).
We are hopeful that an opcode/implementation-focused discussion can be he= ld
concurrently with other efforts such as discussions as to whether
= or not this capability set is a good stopping point, including whether
t= his bundle is worth implementing on its own at all, as well as what
leve= l of assurances we should have as far as tooling and proof of concepts
i= s concerned.

Best,
Greg

(1) https://groups.google.com/g/bi= tcoindev/c/-qJc1EWQzY0

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