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[202.12.124.145]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d75a77b69052e-47eadc3094bsi1436551cf.2.2025.04.30.08.50.01 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 30 Apr 2025 08:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.145 as permitted sender) client-ip=202.12.124.145; Received: from phl-compute-02.internal (phl-compute-02.phl.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailfout.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797E41140201; Wed, 30 Apr 2025 11:50:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-02 ([10.202.2.163]) by phl-compute-02.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 30 Apr 2025 11:50:01 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgddvieejuddtucetufdoteggodetrf dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggv pdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtgg fuhfgjffevgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepufhjohhrshcurfhrohhv ohhoshhtuceoshhjohhrshesshhprhhovhhoohhsthdrnhhlqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrh hnpeevkeelgfffgffgffelfefhgfdtvdduffdtudetieejvdejveekkeegffejteefjeen ucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsjhhorh hssehsphhrohhvohhoshhtrdhnlhdpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepvddpmhhouggvpehsmhht phhouhhtpdhrtghpthhtohepsghithgtohhinhguvghvsehgohhoghhlvghgrhhouhhpsh drtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopehpihhnhhgvrggumhiisehpmhdrmhgv X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ie5e042df:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 30 Apr 2025 11:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.500.181.1.5\)) Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [meta] moving conceptual discussion for policy changes From: Sjors Provoost In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2025 17:49:49 +0200 Cc: Matthew Zipkin Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2294D284-77C1-4885-9585-E591FEE4878A@sprovoost.nl> References: To: "bitcoindev@googlegroups.com" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.500.181.1.5) X-Original-Sender: sjors@sprovoost.nl X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm1 header.b=tDS22H9b; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=EuCKpWvo; spf=pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.145 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) I think it's worth trying, but I don't think it's going to work. There's always going to be people who deliberately link directly to a pull = request with the goal of wreaking havoc. It could just be normal online impulsive behaviour*, similar to road rage. = Someone might first comment on the PR, but feels insufficient heard there. = This (briefly) makes them angry and they want to share this frustration. Th= e social media algorithm does the rest. By the time you cool down, the dama= ge is done. But it can also be done by people who know exactly how this stuff works. > Op 30 apr 2025, om 16:30 heeft 'Matthew Zipkin' via Bitcoin Development M= ailing List het volgende geschreven: >=20 > The comment brigade on the OPRETURN pull requests has gotten out of hand = and I think we should consider adding a new process step for policy changes= . That said, people with good intentions should be given every opportunity to= voice their concerns in a non-destructive way. It's fair to say that the m= ailinglist can be a high bar, especially if the social media link takes you= to Github. Seeing your comment be moderated without a simple and immediate= alternative can lead to extra frustration, it's good if we can prevent tha= t. Since the mailinglist also has a moderation delay, this could add extra = fuel to the frustration. > What I think we need is a second step between the mailing list and the pu= ll request. GitHub "discussions" are probably the best format for this, eit= her in bitcoin-core/meta or bitcoin/bitcoin.=20 >=20 > Taking a hint from Russ' comment in /meta#18, the discussion could be ope= ned with position statements listing all the pro's and con's and most impor= tantly, FAQs and busting myths like "bigger opreturns make it harder to run= a full node". If someone volunteers to write this, that's fine of course. But we should n= ot set this as an expectation. The normal process is to propose on the mail= ing list and then implement in Bitcoin Core, which this PR followed. Perhaps a simpler rule of thumb would be to leave at least two weeks betwee= n the mailinglist post and the actual PR. Or a maintainer can mark it as dr= aft with a do-not-merge-before note. That way people don't perceiving the c= hange as a surprise attack. Additionally, the top of such a PR could say when the Bitcoin Core release = is expected (late 2025!), and that changes can be reverted until then - if = new convincing arguments are brought up.=20 - Sjors * =3D which I'm not immune to --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 2294D284-77C1-4885-9585-E591FEE4878A%40sprovoost.nl.