From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970
Delivery-date: Mon, 31 Mar 2025 13:50:34 -0700
Received: from mail-qt1-f191.google.com ([209.85.160.191])
by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
(Exim 4.94.2)
(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBDL4XL646QOBBEEAVS7QMGQEYFQZ4JA@googlegroups.com>)
id 1tzM5Z-00029j-8f
for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2025 13:50:34 -0700
Received: by mail-qt1-f191.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4766afee192sf25618711cf.0
for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Mon, 31 Mar 2025 13:50:33 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1743454227; cv=pass;
d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
b=N9+HO3HQFG3hQMVxHbS8cIhQI+OSeKUu/eujaumLMvhX9Pg+tMytK6uIXrUX9UDQDY
yJHFZNT+6C5fIK/8phitoWqhHKPyasbdx4aSK6jSBNBaiT6wxEhduQ7EnJHrLNI8d2Ae
huNXZcQvfov0+HERZMrsfN/Xkt/16IWMa0d2+/UfxOjzpOYNIdUm0u2+hC+MyeNwC3zS
hqp5Bg5nnNKp6fNscXiL8RY6TG4VkrYLooPuE7Y330+2cKoXP4rAJqjJGw9uaaKsVV2h
DH0cyOtShpfaIVT/roMMKl7jmoGNjRzzE2GrTucGShgo0G8c2x/KUUApM301GWRPxQpY
9JDQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to:mime-version:feedback-id
:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:from:to:date
:dkim-signature;
bh=UFfqUP2zVAO1U+OiAlMVTHN0hyzuyheanw9g0W4O/x4=;
fh=4fdkDWiEyMY7rwK2Ldyn0hdB3zKqI7fo4O+G33ZsmoE=;
b=eF63vaWbJ1mxnWW/2cQ1ybf9STxscaznH1o3zdGnxEldtYkZu/txapdAIxYbmu/Gnb
zIsdN8VALY5oHMNowrEndf950jdZWy0LkNZWp9Xm5Pi9LnhVUzejjtNlOVq/Czf0qKA4
BGsSxeN/J6Sm/DnbTur9YOUPVWXZihfdsjNs7wDk0Q9dZBsxdggPtqCCqSIec95NhdGF
waiEPFXQrYp3Ur8f1GUBHqHjqAx4z71iiKPsHlZMc8fILFMGZAsEGBtM83nGA8iSCj7p
7GFidn2krfxhyu8X0qp2zJcDfMTqVrShBGopTIQj4EbpvMFXvGMah+sDRHc7d7aMdJvv
iLzA==;
darn=gnusha.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b=SQVfOUxK;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of darosior@protonmail.com designates 79.135.106.29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=darosior@protonmail.com;
dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=protonmail.com
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1743454227; x=1744059027; darn=gnusha.org;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to
:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:mime-version
:feedback-id:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:from:to:date
:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=UFfqUP2zVAO1U+OiAlMVTHN0hyzuyheanw9g0W4O/x4=;
b=C5ND5SaM5xnAt+j201ySelYtdnkP6IybhxRv8ojoXqGvrER/fkM8DaY58EYNMG24LT
8v4C0dLS/Jbg+bdkCJij8p7qHkuv39nJYIAdrQFkTM+E7SOkg726ndNv10er0xBoRZqW
RsacnDisEBc+dne9hCfzAmz8nvieoAyjSHKWj6U0pueqY7KX4xPek5KztwumBSx071/J
pJ4ztd7Ph6ApHAXXJBuL60EQvixMgrGcB5mEVSuu+0WOMTq5tQpNNd3CbbUj/HjoUmr/
YccJkPX2zoq8290Fgxb4lNQA6nyKuZLwHeVai8Gqfy6Yllz9J/CoU4JV+8y/SrIDh9ku
ebhw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1743454227; x=1744059027;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to
:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:mime-version
:feedback-id:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:from:to:date
:x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
:reply-to;
bh=UFfqUP2zVAO1U+OiAlMVTHN0hyzuyheanw9g0W4O/x4=;
b=JNm4V2U8zww/MLK29IGGP7gOu25UTZi2bL2lJy4/rRynqyp7ReRzq4brM6Djxlf1GF
uDQt1LB1X9KGX1tiJ7llR6qG0z2f1/3d0OBN0bRNRDZ0rx39Pf1SekZSxzMYc0dbWPAh
FeB6TvbEhvNWyEPzdxEMbI+4sJvIzwFiY+6u4Z79oBL8vMkNY0Bac61fv5ORDp7wq+5F
prQ6HoJK46WJz/tCJPVeoEciHf3X0lkx3D3pu5CkY3asX7DnpD3CxyCXUBrmdVJ5t3f0
URCt/NYrl3WPbHDCQ5dZPsurqLtDIJ1prdth2mZrpD+8Rhxw+lIQuVHAv+BfPyI0sY3c
X5Zg==
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCUKYnr3FwQX3sCfJWu0FvbPryME19NyUzNCzNxfF01FZ/Agy5UL/H8Z1Nvbzs0IAQe83GhKQMUxwzGn@gnusha.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwgAGIquknPi/yi56HOaGPCMjbxy6y63m9jzRAJgMGCEPWdbFXK
ufD7jd5x3kY9X6i5I7ITiEy41y7OwAZZ6GpkZulZ3qtW8iuwhVB6
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHMZk2pjAafKQcz6S3rM78kzpu3H1qms3eWksFu3pxrnYEneD87UdUPXDB/GGxNWEqgFuDROQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:19a7:b0:476:97d3:54f with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-477e4b294fbmr192337871cf.14.1743454227512;
Mon, 31 Mar 2025 13:50:27 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=ARLLPAJ1w3U73vQ7z6QEnhSJLuQDvrCKy9thxgDq3hsQQQG35A==
Received: by 2002:ac8:6601:0:b0:476:7e35:1cd5 with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4776e324452ls23513001cf.0.-pod-prod-04-us;
Mon, 31 Mar 2025 13:50:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:4544:b0:7c5:53ab:a722 with SMTP id af79cd13be357-7c6862ec00cmr1584988785a.5.1743454224614;
Mon, 31 Mar 2025 13:50:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a05:600c:3acd:b0:43c:fd8b:faa8 with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-43d783ec5b7ms5e9;
Thu, 27 Mar 2025 14:39:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:2d86:b0:391:40bd:621e with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-39ad1784afdmr3776869f8f.44.1743111538736;
Thu, 27 Mar 2025 14:38:58 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1743111538; cv=none;
d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
b=V9OVAtVhu47QB3aZ8OMDBdktiASPdYs5hdBI0smSiyRDdv6p6yNQkFp3X9i/2t4c85
75q9gV4lVnPvdoFVtVb3Zgm5yycZi+a39SB0AacFiNyHSqST0yjfzDnK6i4HRw4CW5hW
9dcotSOXFT280plxFgskhhrUiPTdxlGSE4Uli6OAyoo9GyYrNidjZ/dDoFPj/AFor6UP
OTnqR523iviRugDvC12mN5Bv1RFM6/2A9rCzMZqPgjlJGUB8A/I5eqw6QBc/jTHsObJq
Q9e050kVJdiL3HqWhWvsSMJuHcNfo7/5kvBW0suVVR8BJlYkqwFxaMVzu+F+2KpfpZFe
uGGQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605;
h=mime-version:feedback-id:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject
:from:to:date:dkim-signature;
bh=2GVr6SwcBra/DnzpGRccQKWiuIktkdOkQd4wDlFfjr8=;
fh=lhFSo2W/mHC0QoJ9oNg3A35n0DTltt3CQl1/0RggJlk=;
b=ei1DlyfC7SrX5/aw1hO7bL9+6TD9S0o5yv1tE2QPWFLUEwdncCLmMe7CndrKOvQYCF
Uw0FT3oHO/m2JQRorWmVhQICS6LCx2aSlJIeF+hCqw2QILupyravfOZxUBkR/JzY4Tz7
1r7/awQVxXBV2c0tEw4wK5927nRApklQLMsN+kkTuwIDm+IsRa+vIGu/a6hyFxWnXbqb
hQNvwgyupEkxLid7f0oasTC+dRj3itQAND+HlZCBAnRzxRNnXt89c49HvD1QV4JyAPNV
RhECEwI+HFs6Ybuwj1Gz+ELD2YwCzuC9fqh53DO/YOLDaK+v0Us2K7jLJNd5lvz2YxrP
y8LQ==;
dara=google.com
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b=SQVfOUxK;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of darosior@protonmail.com designates 79.135.106.29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=darosior@protonmail.com;
dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=protonmail.com
Received: from mail-10629.protonmail.ch (mail-10629.protonmail.ch. [79.135.106.29])
by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-43d9151824bsi74975e9.1.2025.03.27.14.38.58
for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
(version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256);
Thu, 27 Mar 2025 14:38:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of darosior@protonmail.com designates 79.135.106.29 as permitted sender) client-ip=79.135.106.29;
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2025 21:38:51 +0000
To: "bitcoindev@googlegroups.com" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
From: "'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Consensus Cleanup BIP draft
Message-ID: <2Lz1KjZ8CJ8i_pHJWpGK8lH2UqUbTiLmyRL9qv5hZJkV9pBpXyYL1i288FwsrvtGMPMU-lhFxv0x-sGnUus9RlA8lMCxrwo8TV5ik1yPxfk=@protonmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <afedbc69-8042-4fe8-99c2-279173a440f3n@googlegroups.com>
References: <uDAujRxk4oWnEGYX9lBD3e0V7a4V4Pd-c4-2QVybSZNcfJj5a6IbO6fCM_xEQEpBvQeOT8eIi1r91iKFIveeLIxfNMzDys77HUcbl7Zne4g=@protonmail.com> <CAGL6+mFQqTS21cQZ_aU=hXtMaKkw5ygAk2PT9hQpdB4THz9X_A@mail.gmail.com> <TD8gP8PKw3th-0DrZznBXrXFILRkwr66wVRoiPC2di_e-NivCRKVjooVZIh7JJSV_C9rJEkKTvudWSG8CJsq16jPhQBjM0eVmPe8rir50Y4=@protonmail.com> <afedbc69-8042-4fe8-99c2-279173a440f3n@googlegroups.com>
Feedback-ID: 7060259:user:proton
X-Pm-Message-ID: 8cf5ee7187151a34bb3f25791e0a5bee6857c1aa
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="b1=_6drVqN9TkLKeTR0d16KWzmhByv2KGydeKuURnjvUxZw"
X-Original-Sender: darosior@protonmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass
header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b=SQVfOUxK;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of darosior@protonmail.com designates
79.135.106.29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=darosior@protonmail.com;
dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=protonmail.com
X-Original-From: Antoine Poinsot <darosior@protonmail.com>
Reply-To: Antoine Poinsot <darosior@protonmail.com>
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
<https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)
--b1=_6drVqN9TkLKeTR0d16KWzmhByv2KGydeKuURnjvUxZw
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeremy,
Thanks for your recommendations. I suggest you lead by example.
"Discussed at length" is not about me. My hastily sharing mistaken results =
[0] a week ago shouldn't obscure the fact that 64 bytes transactions have b=
een studied and generally considered harmful since at least 2017 [1], almos=
t a decade ago.
Regarding your other questions i don't think you, of all people, are in a p=
osition of taking this moral high ground and interrogating tone when it com=
es to consulting industry stakeholders at large about a consensus change.
That said, i (as well as others) have in fact been discussing Consensus Cle=
anup with some miners (hashers as well as pools) for a while. I intend to s=
hare some testing results soon.
Antoine
[0] [https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/great-consensus-cleanup-revival/710/82](h=
ttps://delvingbitcoin.org/t/great-consensus-cleanup-revival/710/82?u=3Danto=
inep)
[1] [https://bitslog.com/2018/06/09/leaf-node-weakness-in-bitcoin-merkle-tr=
ee-design](https://bitslog.com/2018/06/09/leaf-node-weakness-in-bitcoin-mer=
kle-tree-design/)
On Thursday, March 27th, 2025 at 4:45 PM, jeremy <jeremy.l.rubin@gmail.com>=
wrote:
>> First of all, i do not expect to remove any of the mitigations from the =
BIP at this stage. The fact that each of these mitigations was researched a=
nd discussed at length by multiple people over the past year gives me confi=
dence to move forward with every single one of those. Otherwise i would not=
have proposed this BIP in the first place.
>
> I'd recommend taking a much more flexible mindset at this stage. The set =
of eyeballs you get at a pre-BIP and BIP stage, and the level of attention =
are very different, and this type of messaging is very discouraging for som=
eone with expertise to care to put review in v.s. disregarding the effort a=
s non-constructive.
>
> Critically:
>
> In your "discussed at length" proposal, you failed to realize that there =
were indeed 64 byte transactions on-chain until it was pointed out to you 7=
days ago.
>
> You also include a hack using coinbase nSequence -- have you bothered to =
talk to anyone in the mining business how they feel about that? Are you sur=
e no ASIC in the wild don't hardcode a field that never needed to be set be=
fore?
>
> I'm also personally strongly against removing 64-byte transactions. It's =
a wart in how transactions work, and future upgrades (especially around tx =
programmability) might integrate very poorly with this kind of edge conditi=
on.
>
> regards,
>
> Jeremy
>
> On Thursday, March 27, 2025 at 3:36:13=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4 Antoine Poinsot w=
rote:
>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> As i already explained on this very list 2 months ago [0], i don't find =
the argument for splitting my BIP convincing. On the contrary i think it wo=
uld be counterproductive as it would create more churn, invite bikeshedding=
and overall impede progress on this proposal.
>>
>>> we've successfully activated multiple BIPs within a single soft fork in=
the past=E2=80=94e.g., BIP141 and BIP143 in Segwit, as well as BIP341, BIP=
342, and BIP343 in Taproot.
>>
>> Those BIPs had much more content to them. The specifications of the Cons=
ensus Cleanup is trivial in comparison: they fit in less than a dozen lines=
of text when described in details. Splitting them in 4 different BIPs with=
a single or a couple lines of specifications would just introduce unnecess=
ary overhead.
>>
>>> if one of the proposed changes turns out to be controversial, we could =
remove it without holding up the rest of the improvements.
>>
>> First of all, i do not expect to remove any of the mitigations from the =
BIP at this stage. The fact that each of these mitigations was researched a=
nd discussed at length by multiple people over the past year gives me confi=
dence to move forward with every single one of those. Otherwise i would not=
have proposed this BIP in the first place.
>>
>> Now, even if somehow we should drop one of the mitigations from the prop=
osal, having them in separate BIPs does not make that any easier.
>>
>>> More active contributors to the project may have stronger opinions on t=
he best approach there.
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Best,
>> Antoine
>>
>> [0] https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/mm_NvE4votqtjm455I3AmdrLOTzwgfFpqbt=
bFFNy0Zf2PywGt220MXfn76it60q_kbnS9Rw97cv6XzqogNgQMfIXi6-HdOnamw7tUrMtmXc=3D=
@protonmail.com
>> On Thursday, March 27th, 2025 at 6:46 AM, Chris Stewart <stewart....@gma=
il.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Antoine,
>>>
>>> First off, concept ACK. My concerns are procedural rather than objectio=
ns to the individual security fixes themselves.
>>>
>>> The "Great Consensus Cleanup" is a fantastic brand for communicating th=
ese protocol changes to non-technical users. However, since this is a techn=
ical forum and we are producing BIPs intended for technical audiences, I be=
lieve we should document these changes in separate BIPs.
>>>
>>> The proposed security fixes are largely unrelated from a technical stan=
dpoint:
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> Timewarp attack mitigation
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> Worst-case block validation constraints
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> Disallowing 64-byte transactions
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> Avoiding duplicate transactions
>>>
>>> We should absolutely retain the "Great Consensus Cleanup" branding whil=
e independently documenting each security enhancement.
>>>
>>> A common concern I=E2=80=99ve heard about splitting this BIP is that de=
ploying soft forks is difficult, so all changes should be bundled together.=
While soft fork deployment is indeed challenging, we've successfully activ=
ated multiple BIPs within a single soft fork in the past=E2=80=94e.g., BIP1=
41 and BIP143 in Segwit, as well as BIP341, BIP342, and BIP343 in Taproot. =
If the community reaches consensus, we can still deploy all these changes t=
ogether, even if they are documented separately.
>>>
>>> This approach also provides flexibility: if one of the proposed changes=
turns out to be controversial, we could remove it without holding up the r=
est of the improvements. Additionally, once these fixes are deployed, there=
will likely be significant research and documentation to incorporate, and =
maintaining independent BIPs will make it easier to manage that growth.
>>>
>>> I do see merit in implementing all the security fixes in a single PR fo=
r Bitcoin Core. More active contributors to the project may have stronger o=
pinions on the best approach there.
>>>
>>> -Chris
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 26, 2025 at 1:23=E2=80=AFPM 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin D=
evelopment Mailing List <bitco...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> About two months ago i shared an update on this list about my (and oth=
ers', really) work on the
>>>> Consensus Cleanup [0]. I am now ready to share a BIP draft for a Conse=
nsus Cleanup soft fork.
>>>>
>>>> The BIP draft can be found here: https://github.com/darosior/bips/blob=
/consensus_cleanup/bip-cc.md
>>>>
>>>> It includes the following fixes:
>>>> - a restriction on the timestamp of the first and last blocks of a dif=
ficulty adjustment period to
>>>> address the Timewarp and Murch-Zawy attacks;
>>>> - a limit on the number of legacy signature operations that may be exe=
cuted in validating a single
>>>> transaction to address long block validation times;
>>>> - making 64 bytes transactions invalid to address weaknesses in the bl=
ock Merkle tree construction;
>>>> - mandating coinbase transactions be timelocked to their block height =
to prevent future transaction
>>>> duplication without resorting to BIP30 validation.
>>>>
>>>> This BIP draws on the 2019 Great Consensus Cleanup proposal from Matt =
Corallo [1]. A number of
>>>> people contributed ideas, testing, data or useful discussions. This in=
cludes Ava Chow, Matt Corallo,
>>>> Mark Erhardt, Brian Groll, David A. Harding, Sjors Provoost, Anthony T=
owns, Greg Sanders, Chris
>>>> Stewart, Eric Voskuil, @0xb10c and others.
>>>>
>>>> Antoine Poinsot
>>>>
>>>> [0] https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/jiyMlvTX8BnG71f75SqChQZxyhZDQ65kl=
dcugeIDJVJsvK4hadCO3GT46xFc7_cUlWdmOCG0B_WIz0HAO5ZugqYTuX5qxnNLRBn3MopuATI=
=3D@protonmail.com
>>>> [1] https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bips/blob/7f9670b643b7c943a0cc6d219=
7d3eabe661050c2/bip-XXXX.mediawiki
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoi=
ndev/uDAujRxk4oWnEGYX9lBD3e0V7a4V4Pd-c4-2QVybSZNcfJj5a6IbO6fCM_xEQEpBvQeOT8=
eIi1r91iKFIveeLIxfNMzDys77HUcbl7Zne4g%3D%40protonmail.com.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
"Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoinde=
v/afedbc69-8042-4fe8-99c2-279173a440f3n%40googlegroups.com.
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
2Lz1KjZ8CJ8i_pHJWpGK8lH2UqUbTiLmyRL9qv5hZJkV9pBpXyYL1i288FwsrvtGMPMU-lhFxv0=
x-sGnUus9RlA8lMCxrwo8TV5ik1yPxfk%3D%40protonmail.com.
--b1=_6drVqN9TkLKeTR0d16KWzmhByv2KGydeKuURnjvUxZw
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Jeremy,</di=
v><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div=
><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Thanks for=
your recommendations. I suggest you lead by example.</div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"fon=
t-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">"Discussed at length" is not=
about me. My hastily sharing mistaken results [0] a week ago shouldn't obs=
cure the fact that 64 bytes transactions have been studied and generally co=
nsidered harmful since at least 2017 [1], almost a decade ago.</div><div st=
yle=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div sty=
le=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Regarding your othe=
r questions i don't think you, of all people, are in a position of taking t=
his moral high ground and interrogating tone when it comes to consulting in=
dustry stakeholders at large about a consensus change.</div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">That said, i (as well as ot=
hers) have in fact been discussing Consensus Cleanup with some miners (hash=
ers as well as pools) for a while. I intend to share some testing results s=
oon.<br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px=
;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;=
">Antoine<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"pr=
otonmail_signature_block protonmail_signature_block-empty">
<div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block-user protonmail_signature_bloc=
k-empty">
</div>
<div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block-proton protonmail_sign=
ature_block-empty">
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><=
div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">[0] <span><a=
href=3D"https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/great-consensus-cleanup-revival/710/8=
2?u=3Dantoinep" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://delvingbitcoin.org/t/great-consensus-cleanup-revival/710/82</a></span><=
br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">[1=
] <span><a href=3D"https://bitslog.com/2018/06/09/leaf-node-weakness-in-bit=
coin-merkle-tree-design/" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://bitslog.com/2018/06/09/leaf-node-weakness-in-bitcoin-merkle-t=
ree-design</a></span></div><div class=3D"protonmail_quote">
On Thursday, March 27th, 2025 at 4:45 PM, jeremy <jeremy.l.rubin=
@gmail.com> wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"protonmail_quote">
> <span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">First of a=
ll, i do not expect to remove any of the mitigations from the BIP at this s=
tage. The fact that each of these mitigations was researched and discussed =
at length by multiple people over the past year gives me confidence to move=
forward with every single one of those. Otherwise i would not have propose=
d this BIP in the first place.</span><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans=
-serif;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">I'd recom=
mend taking a much more flexible mindset at this stage. The set of eyeballs=
you get at a pre-BIP and BIP stage, and the level of attention are very di=
fferent, and this type of messaging is very discouraging for someone with e=
xpertise to care to put review in v.s. disregarding the effort as non-const=
ructive.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div><div=
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Critically:</div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial,=
sans-serif;">In your "discussed at length" proposal, you failed to realize=
that there were indeed 64 byte transactions on-chain until it was pointed =
out to you 7 days ago.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">=
<br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">You also include a=
hack using coinbase nSequence -- have you bothered to talk to anyone in th=
e mining business how they feel about that? Are you sure no ASIC in the wil=
d don't hardcode a field that never needed to be set before?</div><div styl=
e=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif;">I'm also personally strongly against removing 64-byte t=
ransactions. It's a wart in how transactions work, and future upgrades (esp=
ecially around tx programmability) might integrate very poorly with this ki=
nd of edge condition.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><=
br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">regards,</div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly: Arial, sans-serif;">Jeremy</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-=
serif;"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">On Thursday, March 27, 2025 at 3:36:13=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4 Antoine Po=
insot wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 =
0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><=
div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Hi Chris,</div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div sty=
le=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">As i already explained o=
n this very list 2 months ago [0], i don't find the argument for splitting =
my BIP convincing. On the contrary i think it would be counterproductive as=
it would create more churn, invite bikeshedding and overall impede progres=
s on this proposal.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:14px"><br></div><blockquote style=3D"border-left:3px solid rgb(200,200,2=
00);border-color:rgb(200,200,200);padding-left:10px;color:rgb(102,102,102)"=
><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">we've successfu=
lly activated multiple BIPs within a single soft fork in
the past=E2=80=94e.g., BIP141 and BIP143 in Segwit, as well as BIP341, BIP3=
42,
and BIP343 in Taproot.<br></div></blockquote><div style=3D"font-family:Aria=
l,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif;font-size:14px">Those BIPs had much more content to them. The specif=
ications of the Consensus Cleanup is trivial in comparison: they fit in les=
s than a dozen lines of text when described in details. Splitting them in 4=
different BIPs with a single or a couple lines of specifications would jus=
t introduce unnecessary overhead.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><blockquote style=3D"border-left:3px solid=
rgb(200,200,200);border-color:rgb(200,200,200);padding-left:10px;color:rgb=
(102,102,102)"><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">i=
f one of the proposed changes turns out to be controversial, we could
remove it without holding up the rest of the improvements.<br></div></block=
quote><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>First =
of all, i do not expect to remove any of the mitigations from the BIP at th=
is stage. The fact that each of these mitigations was researched and discus=
sed at length by multiple people over the past year gives me confidence to =
move forward with every single one of those. Otherwise i would not have pro=
posed this BIP in the first place.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,san=
s-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-seri=
f;font-size:14px">Now, even if somehow we should drop one of the mitigation=
s from the proposal, having them in separate BIPs does not make that any ea=
sier.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br><=
/div><blockquote style=3D"border-left:3px solid rgb(200,200,200);border-col=
or:rgb(200,200,200);padding-left:10px;color:rgb(102,102,102)"><div style=3D=
"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">More active contributors to t=
he project may have stronger opinions on the best approach there.<br></div>=
</blockquote><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br=
></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Yes.</div=
><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div =
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Best,<br>Antoine<br><=
/div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><=
div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">[0] <span><a rel=
=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/=
mm_NvE4votqtjm455I3AmdrLOTzwgfFpqbtbFFNy0Zf2PywGt220MXfn76it60q_kbnS9Rw97cv=
6XzqogNgQMfIXi6-HdOnamw7tUrMtmXc=3D@protonmail.com" target=3D"_blank" data-=
saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&q=3Dhttps://gnush=
a.org/pi/bitcoindev/mm_NvE4votqtjm455I3AmdrLOTzwgfFpqbtbFFNy0Zf2PywGt220MXf=
n76it60q_kbnS9Rw97cv6XzqogNgQMfIXi6-HdOnamw7tUrMtmXc%3D@protonmail.com&=
source=3Dgmail&ust=3D1743192218069000&usg=3DAOvVaw1ytCP1TJj9p7wS1cI=
gK6-j">https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/mm_NvE4votqtjm455I3AmdrLOTzwgfFpqbt=
bFFNy0Zf2PywGt220MXfn76it60q_kbnS9Rw97cv6XzqogNgQMfIXi6-HdOnamw7tUrMtmXc=3D=
@protonmail.com</a></span><br></div><div>
On Thursday, March 27th, 2025 at 6:46 AM, Chris Stewart <<a styl=
e=3D"pointer-events: none;" href=3D"" data-email-masked=3D"" rel=3D"norefer=
rer nofollow noopener">stewart....@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">Hi Antoine,
<p>First off, concept ACK. My concerns are procedural rather than objection=
s to the individual security fixes themselves.</p>
<p>The "Great Consensus Cleanup" is a fantastic brand for communicating the=
se protocol changes to non-technical users. However, since this is a techni=
cal forum and we are producing BIPs intended for technical audiences, I bel=
ieve we should document these changes in separate BIPs.</p>
<p>The proposed security fixes are largely unrelated from a technical stand=
point:</p>
<ol><li>
<p>Timewarp attack mitigation</p>
</li><li>
<p>Worst-case block validation constraints</p>
</li><li>
<p>Disallowing 64-byte transactions</p>
</li><li>
<p>Avoiding duplicate transactions</p>
</li></ol>
<p>We should absolutely retain the "Great Consensus Cleanup" branding while=
independently documenting each security enhancement.</p>
<p>A common concern I=E2=80=99ve heard about splitting this BIP is that dep=
loying soft forks is difficult, so all changes should be bundled together. =
While soft fork deployment is indeed challenging, we've successfully activa=
ted multiple BIPs within a single soft fork in the past=E2=80=94e.g., BIP14=
1 and BIP143 in Segwit, as well as BIP341, BIP342, and BIP343 in Taproot. I=
f the community reaches consensus, we can still deploy all these changes to=
gether, even if they are documented separately.</p>
<p>This approach also provides flexibility: if one of the proposed changes =
turns out to be controversial, we could remove it without holding up the re=
st of the improvements. Additionally, once these fixes are deployed, there =
will likely be significant research and documentation to incorporate, and m=
aintaining independent BIPs will make it easier to manage that growth.</p>
<p>I do see merit in implementing all the security fixes in a single PR for=
Bitcoin Core. More active contributors to the project may have stronger op=
inions on the best approach there.<br><br></p><p>-Chris <br></p><hr><div><b=
r></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Mar 26, 2025 at 1:23=E2=
=80=AFPM 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List <<a styl=
e=3D"pointer-events: none;" href=3D"" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" =
data-email-masked=3D"">bitco...@googlegroups.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-le=
ft-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" class=
=3D"gmail_quote">Hi everyone,<br>
<br>
About two months ago i shared an update on this list about my (and others',=
really) work on the<br>
Consensus Cleanup [0]. I am now ready to share a BIP draft for a Consensus =
Cleanup soft fork.<br>
<br>
The BIP draft can be found here: <a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" hr=
ef=3D"https://github.com/darosior/bips/blob/consensus_cleanup/bip-cc.md" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&=
amp;q=3Dhttps://github.com/darosior/bips/blob/consensus_cleanup/bip-cc.md&a=
mp;source=3Dgmail&ust=3D1743192218069000&usg=3DAOvVaw3ccgxX-nKrN0D8=
EvdfMiWl">https://github.com/darosior/bips/blob/consensus_cleanup/bip-cc.md=
</a><br>
<br>
It includes the following fixes:<br>
- a restriction on the timestamp of the first and last blocks of a difficul=
ty adjustment period to<br>
address the Timewarp and Murch-Zawy attacks;<br>
- a limit on the number of legacy signature operations that may be executed=
in validating a single<br>
transaction to address long block validation times;<br>
- making 64 bytes transactions invalid to address weaknesses in the block M=
erkle tree construction;<br>
- mandating coinbase transactions be timelocked to their block height to pr=
event future transaction<br>
duplication without resorting to BIP30 validation.<br>
<br>
This BIP draws on the 2019 Great Consensus Cleanup proposal from Matt Coral=
lo [1]. A number of<br>
people contributed ideas, testing, data or useful discussions. This include=
s Ava Chow, Matt Corallo,<br>
Mark Erhardt, Brian Groll, David A. Harding, Sjors Provoost, Anthony Towns,=
Greg Sanders, Chris<br>
Stewart, Eric Voskuil, @0xb10c and others.<br>
<br>
Antoine Poinsot<br>
<br>
[0] <a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"https://gnusha.org/pi/b=
itcoindev/jiyMlvTX8BnG71f75SqChQZxyhZDQ65kldcugeIDJVJsvK4hadCO3GT46xFc7_cUl=
WdmOCG0B_WIz0HAO5ZugqYTuX5qxnNLRBn3MopuATI=3D@protonmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&q=3Dhtt=
ps://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/jiyMlvTX8BnG71f75SqChQZxyhZDQ65kldcugeIDJVJsv=
K4hadCO3GT46xFc7_cUlWdmOCG0B_WIz0HAO5ZugqYTuX5qxnNLRBn3MopuATI%3D@protonmai=
l.com&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D1743192218069000&usg=3DAOvVaw1wB0lF9=
-vOTU1VvKTYb8Hi">https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/jiyMlvTX8BnG71f75SqChQZxy=
hZDQ65kldcugeIDJVJsvK4hadCO3GT46xFc7_cUlWdmOCG0B_WIz0HAO5ZugqYTuX5qxnNLRBn3=
MopuATI=3D@protonmail.com</a><br>
[1] <a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"https://github.com/TheB=
lueMatt/bips/blob/7f9670b643b7c943a0cc6d2197d3eabe661050c2/bip-XXXX.mediawi=
ki" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=
=3Den&q=3Dhttps://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bips/blob/7f9670b643b7c943a0cc=
6d2197d3eabe661050c2/bip-XXXX.mediawiki&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D174319=
2218069000&usg=3DAOvVaw1CoU-1U8kZ0Be19fO02Bvj">https://github.com/TheBl=
ueMatt/bips/blob/7f9670b643b7c943a0cc6d2197d3eabe661050c2/bip-XXXX.mediawik=
i</a><br>
<br>
-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a style=3D"pointer-events: none;" href=3D"" rel=3D"noreferrer nofo=
llow noopener" data-email-masked=3D"">bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com</a>.<=
br>
To view this discussion visit <a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=
=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/uDAujRxk4oWnEGYX9lBD3e0V7a=
4V4Pd-c4-2QVybSZNcfJj5a6IbO6fCM_xEQEpBvQeOT8eIi1r91iKFIveeLIxfNMzDys77HUcbl=
7Zne4g%3D%40protonmail.com" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https=
://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&q=3Dhttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bit=
coindev/uDAujRxk4oWnEGYX9lBD3e0V7a4V4Pd-c4-2QVybSZNcfJj5a6IbO6fCM_xEQEpBvQe=
OT8eIi1r91iKFIveeLIxfNMzDys77HUcbl7Zne4g%253D%2540protonmail.com&source=
=3Dgmail&ust=3D1743192218069000&usg=3DAOvVaw2LfFKyuEOjwC7OLflsqYwH"=
>https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/uDAujRxk4oWnEGYX9lBD3e0V7a4V4=
Pd-c4-2QVybSZNcfJj5a6IbO6fCM_xEQEpBvQeOT8eIi1r91iKFIveeLIxfNMzDys77HUcbl7Zn=
e4g%3D%40protonmail.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote><br>
</div></blockquote></div>
<p></p>
-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+u=
nsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<b=
r>
To view this discussion visit <a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" targe=
t=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/afedbc69-=
8042-4fe8-99c2-279173a440f3n%40googlegroups.com">https://groups.google.com/=
d/msgid/bitcoindev/afedbc69-8042-4fe8-99c2-279173a440f3n%40googlegroups.com=
</a>.<br>
</blockquote><br>
</div>
<p></p>
-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind=
ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
bitcoindev/2Lz1KjZ8CJ8i_pHJWpGK8lH2UqUbTiLmyRL9qv5hZJkV9pBpXyYL1i288FwsrvtG=
MPMU-lhFxv0x-sGnUus9RlA8lMCxrwo8TV5ik1yPxfk%3D%40protonmail.com?utm_medium=
=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
2Lz1KjZ8CJ8i_pHJWpGK8lH2UqUbTiLmyRL9qv5hZJkV9pBpXyYL1i288FwsrvtGMPMU-lhFxv0=
x-sGnUus9RlA8lMCxrwo8TV5ik1yPxfk%3D%40protonmail.com</a>.<br />
--b1=_6drVqN9TkLKeTR0d16KWzmhByv2KGydeKuURnjvUxZw--