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([2a01:cb1d:44:6500:c196:bfae:4e3f:d5fe]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id h51sm26516680edh.17.2019.01.03.16.02.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 03 Jan 2019 16:02:36 -0800 (PST) To: James MacWhyte , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion , thealanevans@gmail.com References: <68330522-7e7c-c3b4-99a9-1c68ddb56f23@gmail.com> <743fb106-977e-1f34-47af-9fb3b8621e72@gmail.com> From: Aymeric Vitte Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=vitteaymeric@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFdW8uABEAC7HJScbB2d/lmYoY5Cn9loEjJwfLs1LC3om030bWFGiH3Ceo5XeHUT94rw Pi+HaHU8ea94425SXIFsnqp/ouoT/8Ffn6vED0OoRmK0jE4fqDApXSpoL2mHX9PAGdUItMtD YrxBiBZNfMkctEsm4NrQ4TCvB3Yrm6Fc69inXJjUoYgPw5tHafEeI8Qwh0j99JZZDKcAqIra JF3MPc59rATz0qOJtRP9EpsPVFwjJe13zN6CHILwiVgrL8EtT5WKCVO6ATxh60LHi8+MwPxV V31zp/NNI5Hck+XocEMO98ZvUu9X8ZxmnOk/+9pBxXEwUqSGUNWdmPJLncpI23Usce3u/MOo M2C4T4rD4J0XrXiyBvbeTvwq4qVNlyggeWzlBH+YpEYgDctPq4gNh4eoTtAkf8URtBeke5bQ CGdaZt/jxv8nvmxs9V/iSyg5ldJLQktHStXOo0OZ7FEB2C6Ggtymm4hm2MHYg07Q1MGJrFLa oJZkJ3JeXnVsZMam7ypQtld6rRa96CvH+llXwux6aQ5hKdzmBBMQ10LlkZhkExgTawbeqdiG RMP2DjD5go6TPdAHS4NN34SBkrTWLqgWOjN/lnG77bbLnpMl0P+xBTuqw1oSXaDbcdHE2nGY lRno/ZZIfr+1Bq56DZLBX/WpnAT4f5WtofL4CxQM9SbG6byyewARAQABtCJBeW1lcmljIFZp dHRlIDxheW1lcmljQHBlZXJzbS5jb20+iQI/BBMBCAApBQJXVvLgAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQKh17NCYnrDm3WhAAlYmgtSmtfqjBvQMqkmtqiQJA aZkzFZWt6+zroduHH5/Tp8jh73gFqCUyRrl/kcKvs2+XQhfrOwk1R6OScF25bpnrZSeuyJnZ MZu4T0P2tGS8YdddQvWUHMtI9ZnQRuYmuZT23/hgj1JnukuGvGLeY0yDUa1xFffPN39shp5X FPMcpIVOV3bs+xjAdsyfRyO3qJAD1FGiR7ggJeoaxUbKZ6NtcVUPPRMjVTKfopkuDwKY318m BE0epfxSZ/iRhsJ0/sREUWgbgq4/QvCFwBKzgz7fTikGmf8OELWSdofmXs7gOtmMc3el8fJu W8PVa/OsIQHDmwSzvxmE8ba5M8bdwOYEraTWFArIymAAtRXKxmuYpkqKfeSlbCwae3W+pgNT 8nKYRVAFlMtIxYkmPYyMTk9kCscmSqugGWbWdnqe/dhVaa31xa1qO1tDH24D2/tjCJRQt4Jk AEWNSmjCmjfeArMEFTGlZwMTAjVXErLSPbLOsZiZhD9sjvSbfzrtJiMli2h9+Dvds+AJk1PM O8LW7cCNyFoCk4OdAxzJHobZ25G+uy4NSQEHgxLC2iuh/tugz1tOHnQczPc/3AkVVI9A5DF1 gbVRBJh6rI7sAcwuR76uoOs0Rpp7r6I66xqU/5eq8g1OsJp89tw0ppSIa0YmaxNqQZ0l3rVX o/ZwpBjtNQS5Ag0EV1by4AEQANhlz3Ywff4dY1HTdn05v0wVUxZzW2PUih+96m6EhpUrD9BT vxriKtbgxm/zl+5YAlThbrk9f0QyVTHJ95Z1/M5qjuksP9Zn3qZ/8ylANDkN2s3z8Bq/LJA+ u7+APhMqyFWK0FqNCOogClvijiKPEzkU6tmDGO6wZ5pR/u8Fdq7DGQgwgyGZZc7qstte0M7l yx7bVRlPBqvd6kyX3YubQHzkctf46nFjiYZgKawdWFsA3PCdSBupbhixL5d/t1UK9ZTiQJcf 0uhHzT06qwolFrm/ugkLDHtE4Zo3BuKch47Sms8P2hJ08gABxeJHg0ZgkIUy/Xf4nHbDCBJw T8tE8pWYWA2ECiPNo0TOCMVOueEzISUNKINfCuFHSbMQU39hgt3ofxODbAjOiO3e/iu1ptck AkuVBdtjOBP4tHRGxVrbf5EuAV5U5xtiSxMwMgojg0GIXZjnT/8uvWqcLqtJILRMmmu+WNvD oxuiJzcTJhDai9oujmxQwcpMvgrBB89KSTDyitO5XVjZqaR7Zxvvn3rM4bAms/lotv9+pTyh spazTIxb80u0ifJ6y1RxAkxQCfWwps1i3VbsM6OKX78aUyOf5V4ihXF57M37tOqPRwFvz6a+ AIIhUNMTLo2H+o6Vw9qbX8SUxPHPs6YpJ8lWQJ9OMWHE+SbaDFAi/D5hYRubABEBAAGJAiUE GAEIAA8FAldW8uACGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQKh17NCYnrDmk4Q/9Fuu0h5HvIiO3ieYA2StdE7hO vv2THuesjJDsj6aQUTgknaxKptJogNe3dDyIT+FHxXmCw0Nrbm9Q3ryl80z/G9utfFNO3Gwc q31QW3n3LJHnpqdrV3WsRzT5NwJMVtiIAGRrX8ZomtarWHT0PeEHC2xBdFzRrJtmkrwer0Wc 0nBzD7vk1XEXC9nODbmlgsesoHFgRwQBst3wClCbX1gv8aSfxQNpaf9UBC8DmyrQ621UXpBo PvcFEtWxV44vJfP0WOLCCN0Pzv2F2I66iKo7VMqbr5jlNAXJN9I1hXb7qwYJmBC9j5oeEoqv A9d44WWpxrdAr8qih4Nv89k9+9F6NoqORY3FGuVDKiW8CVhCmGT7bIvNeyicVBZFipXqPcKL VFduO2c5Ubc2npMWLUF1k9JJc9tH75l3+F/0RbYVTzGAZ+zSaudwR6h8YiCN2DBZGZkJEZbh 3X/l6jtijMN/W9sPHyyKvm/TmeEC27S3TqZPZ8PUQLxZC70V6gMbenh01JdSQsn5t8Ru0RNh Blt0g7IyZyIKCE9b+TyzbYpX6qgqEBUHia5b0vyPtQacWQlZ8uqnghAqNkLluEsy7Q/7xG6M wXUYEDsFOmB9dKOzcAOIhpxlVjSKu5mzXJ11sEtE8nyF5NJ/riCA7FGcjlki3zIpzQUNo9v7 vXl2h6Tivlk= Message-ID: <2df60f7f-58a4-b5b6-757f-7d50a339ff97@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 01:02:35 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F9D36DED4870A2C4F80FE238" Content-Language: fr X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 04 Jan 2019 03:18:25 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP39 seeds X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2019 00:02:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F9D36DED4870A2C4F80FE238 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What I have in mind is in my latest reply (difficult to have some kind of fluent discussions on this list given the moderation and delayed posts) I would just add that the derivation method (indeed something like what you are sketching below) should estimate that there is enough entropy from the secret, if not just throw Le 02/01/2019 à 19:06, James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev a écrit : > On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 3:40 AM Alan Evans via bitcoin-dev > > wrote: > > > I think any method that doesn't use real entropy, but some fake > source of randomness, such as a book is asking to be hacked and so > is not a reasonable idea. > > If an algorithm for book text to BIP39 sentence ever became well > used, common books will be systematically searched for accounts. > People will also choose their favourite passages, so I would > expect to see collisions. > > > I tend to have this conversation a lot ;) I'm not sure what Aymeric > has in mind, but my suggestions are for use by the small few who > properly understand how these things work. I am not suggesting > blockchain.info require every user to choose > a book passage to use as their backup phrase! > > There are so many small things that could be done to make a text input > unique. Choose the X number of words from the start of the Nth > sentence. Replace all punctuation with exclamation points. Combine two > sentences from different pages. It would be nigh impossible to brute > force any of these, and would require hints/instructions from the > owner to recover. > > But I admit if this is not intended for standardization, discussing it > on this mailing list is probably unwarranted. > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev -- Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org Peersm : http://www.peersm.com torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms --------------F9D36DED4870A2C4F80FE238 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

What I have in mind is in my latest reply (difficult to have some kind of fluent discussions on this list given the moderation and delayed posts)

I would just add that the derivation method (indeed something like what you are sketching below) should estimate that there is enough entropy from the secret, if not just throw

Le 02/01/2019 à 19:06, James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev a écrit :
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 3:40 AM Alan Evans via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

I think any method that doesn't use real entropy, but some fake source of randomness, such as a book is asking to be hacked and so is not a reasonable idea.

If an algorithm for book text to BIP39 sentence ever became well used, common books will be systematically searched for accounts. People will also choose their favourite passages, so I would expect to see collisions.


I tend to have this conversation a lot ;) I'm not sure what Aymeric has in mind, but my suggestions are for use by the small few who properly understand how these things work. I am not suggesting blockchain.info require every user to choose a book passage to use as their backup phrase!

There are so many small things that could be done to make a text input unique. Choose the X number of words from the start of the Nth sentence. Replace all punctuation with exclamation points. Combine two sentences from different pages. It would be nigh impossible to brute force any of these, and would require hints/instructions from the owner to recover.

But I admit if this is not intended for standardization, discussing it on this mailing list is probably unwarranted.

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-- 
Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet
Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions
Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets
Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
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GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms
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