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[2620:6e:a000:1::99]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d75a77b69052e-4a608fefae1si3699351cf.0.2025.06.09.14.12.32 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 09 Jun 2025 14:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lf-lists@mattcorallo.com designates 2620:6e:a000:1::99 as permitted sender) client-ip=2620:6e:a000:1::99; X-DKIM-Note: Keys used to sign are likely public at X-DKIM-Note: https://as397444.net/dkim/mattcorallo.com and X-DKIM-Note: https://as397444.net/dkim/clients.mail.as397444.net X-DKIM-Note: For more info, see https://as397444.net/dkim/ Received: by mail.as397444.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) (Exim) (envelope-from ) id 1uOjnC-000hNz-1l; Mon, 09 Jun 2025 21:12:30 +0000 Message-ID: <351b6327-08ab-4c2d-937c-521020978c82@mattcorallo.com> Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2025 17:12:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter To: /dev /fd0 Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List References: <6f78b702-4bd0-4aa4-ac51-b881d8df9f01@mattcorallo.com> <01f49d64-838e-4311-bf79-8c4130b40c8e@mattcorallo.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Matt Corallo In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Original-Sender: lf-lists@mattcorallo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@mattcorallo.com header.s=1749501662 header.b="r3Q/oN+K"; dkim=pass header.i=@clients.mail.as397444.net header.s=1749501665 header.b=pJnHwQ9F; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lf-lists@mattcorallo.com designates 2620:6e:a000:1::99 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lf-lists@mattcorallo.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=mattcorallo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) Note that you can always reply inline, you don't have to copy and paste quo= tes, your email client=20 will do that for you :) On 6/9/25 3:27 PM, /dev /fd0 wrote: > Hi Matt, >=20 > > I mean, sure, compared to something trivial doing something marginally= -trivial has a lot bigger > > surface area. But that isn't really an argument unless we're talking a= bout something truly > > complicated, and TXHASH absolutely is not. >=20 > If you are referring to [BIP 346][0], it is not /marginally/ trivial comp= ared to BIP 119.=20 > TxFieldSelector makes it super complex. That's without even considering t= he possibilities when=20 > combined with CSFS. The "marginally-trivial" comment was not in comparison to, rather in the ge= neral sense. taking=20 hashes of various parts of the transaction based on a discriminator (with i= ntermediate hashes and=20 caching to avoid hashed-data blowups) is absolutely marginally-trivial in t= he context of recent soft=20 fork complexity. > > If that goal includes more flexible tx field commitments (I imagine it > > certainly does!) then we should do that, rather than taking a detour w= e should make progress towards > > the eventual goal! >=20 > Sometimes the goal is easier to achieve through multiple steps with BIP 1= 19 being the first step in=20 > this case. I believe you missed my comment addressing this specifically in the email y= ou're replying to, let me=20 paste it here: > I do not understand why people make this argument. Yes, the encoding of = the opcode allows you to=20 turn it into an OP_NOP (or SUCCESS or whatever), that doesn't make it "upgr= ade hook"-friendly. If we=20 think that we just want to do CTV but we want CTV to be upgradable later to= be TXHASH, then we first=20 need to define the TXHASH hash and bitfield format, so that we can take the= subset of it that=20 captures CTV and hard-code that. But, of course, if we do that work we shou= ld clearly do TXHASH =F0=9F=99=82. > There are several reasons to prefer BIP 119 over BIP 346, and I have lis= ted some of them > below, based on rationales shared in the [covenants support wiki][1]: > > 1. All the possible configurations need to be tested. I mean....okay? Yes? And? Come on, this isn't a lot of work. > 2. State carrying UTXOs will bloat=C2=A0the UTXO set. State carrying UTXOs will bloat the UTXO set worse if its done via BitVM/GC= ? Come on... > 3.=C2=A0BIP 346 could be activated in 2030 or later, once we better under= stand how people are actually=20 > using covenants. This approach would be based on real-world usage rather = than premature optimization=20 > without sufficient data. This is similar to the argument I was replying to which you replied to here= , and I think my original=20 response still stands and wasn't responded to at all: > This is a much better argument =F0=9F=99=82. I'm a bit skeptical, though= , that its quite this cut-and-dry.=20 For example, the utter hack of the BitVM-with-CTV variant pretty clearly po= ints to us needing a more=20 fully featured commitment gadget to enable these things without the nonsens= e they had to resort to. IOW, we have concrete use-cases already for TXHASH-over-CTV (at least in th= e sense that it would=20 simplify things that are currently very hacky), and if it avoids a future s= oft fork by just enabling=20 the full set of things today vs some narrow subset, I don't see why we shou= ldn't take on the extra=20 month of work. Matt --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 351b6327-08ab-4c2d-937c-521020978c82%40mattcorallo.com.