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[202.12.124.155]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d75a77b69052e-4a72a3faa14si2250051cf.3.2025.06.14.08.58.27 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 14 Jun 2025 08:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.155 as permitted sender) client-ip=202.12.124.155; Received: from phl-compute-07.internal (phl-compute-07.phl.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailfhigh.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9325F254013A; Sat, 14 Jun 2025 11:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-07.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 14 Jun 2025 11:58:26 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtddugddvuddvhecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdp uffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivg hnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjffevgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdt jeenucfhrhhomhepufhjohhrshcurfhrohhvohhoshhtuceoshhjohhrshesshhprhhovh hoohhsthdrnhhlqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeduheeuffdtvdduvdfggffhieejjedv udduffettdethedvtdffhfehkeehjeeihfenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtoh hmpdguvghlvhhinhhgsghithgtohhinhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt necurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsjhhorhhssehsphhrohhvohhoshhtrdhnlh dpnhgspghrtghpthhtohephedpmhhouggvpehsmhhtphhouhhtpdhrtghpthhtohepjhgr mhgvshhonhdrlhhophhpsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepuggrrhhoshhioh hrsehprhhothhonhhmrghilhdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopehlfhdqlhhishhtshesmhgr thhttghorhgrlhhlohdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopegrphhovghlshhtrhgrseifphhsoh hfthifrghrvgdrnhgvthdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttghoihhnuggvvhesghhoohhglhgv ghhrohhuphhsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ie5e042df:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sat, 14 Jun 2025 11:58:25 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.600.51.1.1\)) Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter From: Sjors Provoost In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2025 17:58:15 +0200 Cc: Antoine Poinsot , Matt Corallo , Andrew Poelstra , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3781512A-0912-4493-AED5-9520A0488949@sprovoost.nl> References: <46349b6c-ccec-4378-8721-aecec22752e7@mattcorallo.com> <8d158e3d-b3cc-44b6-b71b-ab2e733c047c@mattcorallo.com> To: Jameson Lopp X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.600.51.1.1) X-Original-Sender: sjors@sprovoost.nl X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm2 header.b=LovmhfD1; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=RrLL8RJx; spf=pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.155 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) Hi Jameson, CTV does enable vaults, but the user has to (carefully) move coins into the= vault themselves. Because CTV commits to the amount, among other things, y= ou can't simply publish a vault address and receive arbitrary amounts there= . They'd be stuck, committing to an impossible to satisfy CTV hash. There's also the question of what, if anything, the user needs to backup af= ter each deposit [0]. It's probably just the deposit transaction id, which = is arguably something that can be recovered with some (?) work. OP_CCV enables a more flexible design where the user can receive arbitrary = amounts directly into their vault address, and with nothing to backup after= initial setup (seeds + descriptor-like-thing). Here's a demo functional test for an OP_CCV vault (without CTV): https://gi= thub.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32080 The problem with both demos is that they use boutique software. There's not= yet a potentially interoperable standard to describe these things. Hopefully some simple vault schemes can be shoehorned into the existing out= put descriptor paradigm [1], because inventing a whole new way of making va= ult-aware wallets interoperable would take many years. To illustrate such schemes, I'd love to see a working demo using just a (pa= tched) Bitcoin Core wallet. Though perhaps a library like BDK[2] is an easi= er platform for such ideation. =20 - Sjors [0] https://github.com/jamesob/simple-ctv-vault/issues/9 [1] https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-vault-output-descriptor/1766/8 [2] https://github.com/bitcoindevkit > Op 13 jun 2025, om 17:41 heeft Jameson Lopp het = volgende geschreven: >=20 [...] >=20 > I'm not sure how to parse Antoine's claim that CTV+CSFS doesn't enable va= ults given that there has already been a CTV vault client proof of concept = for 3 years: https://github.com/jamesob/simple-ctv-vault >=20 > On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 9:07=E2=80=AFAM Antoine Poinsot wrote: [...] > That said, consensus-enforced vaults require a mechanism to forward any a= mount received on a script A to a pre-committed script B. CTV+CSFS does not= enable this, and a primitive that actually does (like CCV) is more controv= ersial because of its potency. [...] > I also appreciate that CTV is nice to have for CCV vaults, but a potentia= l future use case that is not enabled by one proposal cannot be used to mot= ivate said proposal. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 3781512A-0912-4493-AED5-9520A0488949%40sprovoost.nl.