From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DB208CE for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 19:57:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from peacecow.phauna.org (phauna.org [208.82.98.102]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFB38239 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 19:57:23 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=phauna.org; s=apricot; h=Message-ID:To:Date:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To; bh=ivGag5lU1M5UuROuE9PpFSGyJ5U1JvE0m6FN1iNP454=; b=v86qPpiELlJIs6LIVUCcBX4BouS/dkSRuFfV8HWas7LSgf9uPs9Ihjhf9X90ZjIcORrZvNyLg/YDc3TRyneo7RUkNgn+GCqiL/i9TZFVi9x2qDQ3fU7GX4zv/aiWraVu8MI2pI0n3YxCGKscCqOTQMHVjvm0qqO8aZFpqnVLaPE=; Received: from [172.56.37.52] (helo=[33.39.2.128]) by peacecow.phauna.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1ZKXTc-00049M-71 for bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 14:57:22 -0500 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <1B7F00D3-41AE-44BF-818D-EC4EF279DC11@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Owen Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 15:56:57 -0400 To: Bitcoin Dev Message-ID: <37D282C2-EF9C-4B8B-91E8-7D613B381824@phauna.org> X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "peacecow.phauna.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: On July 29, 2015 7:15:49 AM EDT, Mike Hearn via bitcoin-dev: >Consider this: the highest Bitcoin tx fees can possibly go is perhaps >a >little higher than what our competition charges. Too much higher than >that, >and people will just say, you know what .... I'll make a bank transfer. >It's cheaper and not much slower, sometimes no slower at all. [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Why Satoshi's temporary anti-spam measure isn't temporary X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 19:57:24 -0000 On July 29, 2015 7:15:49 AM EDT, Mike Hearn via bitcoin-dev: >Consider this: the highest Bitcoin tx fees can possibly go is perhaps >a >little higher than what our competition charges=2E Too much higher than >that, >and people will just say, you know what =2E=2E=2E=2E I'll make a bank tra= nsfer=2E >It's cheaper and not much slower, sometimes no slower at all=2E I respectfully disagree with this analysis=2E The implication is that bitc= oin is merely one of a number of payment technologies=2E It's much more tha= n that=2E It's sound money, censorship resistance, personal control over mo= ney, programmable money, and more=2E Without these attributes it's merely a= really inefficient way to do payments=2E=20 Given these advantages, there is no reason to believe the marginal cost of= a transaction can't far surpass that of a PayPal or bank transfer=2E I per= sonally would pay several multiples of the competitors' fees to continue us= ing bitcoin=2E Sure, some marginal use cases will drop off with greater fees, but that's = normal and expected=2E These will be use cases where the user doesn't care = about bitcoin's advantages=2E We must be willing to let these use cases go = anyway, because we unfortunately don't have room on chain for everything an= yone might want to do=2E Therefore, bitcoin tx fees can go much higher than the competition=2E Remember how Satoshi referenced the banking crisis in his early work? The = 2008 banking crisis was about a lot of things, but high credit card and pay= pal fees wasnt one of them=2E There's more going on here than just payments= =2E Any speculative economic analysis would do better to include this fact= =2E