From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1VnAg5-0007pD-9B for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 01 Dec 2013 17:19:29 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.182; envelope-from=mh.in.england@gmail.com; helo=mail-ea0-f182.google.com; Received: from mail-ea0-f182.google.com ([209.85.215.182]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1VnAg3-0007WX-1c for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 01 Dec 2013 17:19:29 +0000 Received: by mail-ea0-f182.google.com with SMTP id o10so11053494eaj.13 for ; Sun, 01 Dec 2013 09:19:20 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.14.108.6 with SMTP id p6mr2635836eeg.31.1385918360667; Sun, 01 Dec 2013 09:19:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.105] (84-75-251-165.dclient.hispeed.ch. [84.75.251.165]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id e3sm25408961eeg.11.2013.12.01.09.19.17 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 01 Dec 2013 09:19:18 -0800 (PST) Sender: Mike Hearn Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_78C3A99F-A898-4956-B372-0989B70A6632"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.0 \(1822\)) From: Mike Hearn In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:19:14 +0100 Message-Id: <39921E12-B411-4430-9D56-04F53906B109@plan99.net> References: <5E4597E4-C1C7-4536-8CF0-82EDD7715DAB@plan99.net> To: Andreas Schildbach X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1822) X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (mh.in.england[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1VnAg3-0007WX-1c Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 17:19:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_78C3A99F-A898-4956-B372-0989B70A6632 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > Both can be combined into adapting the current generic messages ("This > payment should become spendable shortly" for incoming and "This = payment > has not been transmitted yet" for outgoing transactions).=20 What would the new messages say? We need to get away from the notion of senders attaching fees anyway. = This is the wrong way around because it=92s the recipient who cares = about double spending risk, not the sender. That=92s why merchants keep = running into issues with people attaching zero fees. Of course they = attach zero fees. They know they aren=92t going to double spend. It=92s = the merchant who cares about getting the security against that. The UI for sending money should end up dead simple - no mention of fees = anywhere, IMO. The UI for receiving money could be a bit more complicated but even then = - I think if ordinary people using smartphone wallets are having to = think about how quickly they want their transaction to confirm and = adjust fees, etc on the receiving side then we=92re getting dangerously = close to the usability failure zone. Unfortunately we lack the protocol pieces to get the right UI here :( = Someone needs to sit down and figure out what the UI *should* look like, = in the ideal world, and then work backwards to figure out what needs to = be done to get us there. > For outgoing transactions, if it is very clear that they're never = going > to be confirmed, I'd like to see a "Revoke" button. Disagree. There should never be any cases in which a transaction doesn=92t= confirm. Period. I know there have been bugs with bitcoinj that could = cause this in the past, but they were bugs and they got fixed/will get = fixed. Settlement failure is just unacceptable and building a UI around the = possibility will just encourage people to think of it as normal, when it = should not be so.= --Apple-Mail=_78C3A99F-A898-4956-B372-0989B70A6632 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMcjCCBjQw ggQcoAMCAQICAR4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwfTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSUwxFjAUBgNVBAoTDVN0YXJ0 Q29tIEx0ZC4xKzApBgNVBAsTIlNlY3VyZSBEaWdpdGFsIENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNpZ25pbmcxKTAn BgNVBAMTIFN0YXJ0Q29tIENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTA3MTAyNDIxMDE1NVoX DTE3MTAyNDIxMDE1NVowgYwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSsw KQYDVQQLEyJTZWN1cmUgRGlnaXRhbCBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBTaWduaW5nMTgwNgYDVQQDEy9TdGFy dENvbSBDbGFzcyAxIFByaW1hcnkgSW50ZXJtZWRpYXRlIENsaWVudCBDQTCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcN AQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAMcJg8zOLdgasSmkLhOrlr6KMoOMpohBllVHrdRvEg/q6r8jR+EK 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