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([2601:600:a080:16bb:29ff:b615:305b:5e87]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y8sm9799106pfn.52.2019.06.30.11.54.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 30 Jun 2019 11:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Eric Voskuil X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F203) In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 11:54:45 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3F46CDD5-DA80-49C8-A51F-8066680EF347@voskuil.org> References: <0DBC0DEA-C999-4AEE-B2E1-D5337ECD9405@gmail.com> <7A10C0F5-E206-43C1-853F-64AE04F57711@voskuil.org> <708D14A9-D25E-4DD2-8B6E-39A1194A7A00@voskuil.org> <1A808C88-63FD-4F45-8C95-2B8B4D99EDF5@gmail.com> <83705370-79FC-4006-BA04-4782AD5BE70B@voskuil.org> To: Tamas Blummer X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 19:33:20 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable riskless or risky lending, prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 18:54:48 -0000 Could you please explain the meaning and utility of =E2=80=9Cunforgeable reg= ister=E2=80=9D as it pertains to such encumbered coins? The meaning in terms of Bitcoin is clear - the =E2=80=9Cowner=E2=80=9D of ou= tputs that represent value (i.e. in the ability to trade them for something e= lse) is recorded publicly and, given Bitcoin security assumptions, cannot be= faked. What is not clear is the utility of a record of outputs that cannot b= e traded for something else. You seem to imply that a record is valuable sim= ply because it=E2=80=99s a record. e > On Jun 30, 2019, at 11:35, Tamas Blummer wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Jun 30, 2019, at 19:41, Eric Voskuil wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 03:56, Tamas Blummer wrote= : >>>=20 >>> Hi Eric, >>>=20 >>>> On Jun 29, 2019, at 23:21, Eric Voskuil wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> What loan? Alice has paid Bob for something of no possible utility to h= er, or anyone else. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Coins encumbered with the described covenant represent temporary control= of a scarce resource. >>>=20 >>> Can this obtain value? That depends on the availability of final control= and ability to deal with temporary control. >>=20 >> For something to become property (and therefore have marketable value) re= quires that it be both scarce and useful. Bitcoin is useful only to the exte= nt that it can be traded for something else that is useful. Above you are on= ly dealing with scarcity, ignoring utility. >=20 > There is a deeper utility of Bitcoin than it can be traded for something e= lse. That utility is to use its unforgeable register. > We have only one kind of units in this register and by having covenants we= would create other kinds that are while encumbered not fungible with the co= mmon ones. >=20 > Units are certainly less desirable if encumbered with a debt covenant. You= say no one would assign them any value. >=20 > I am not that sure as they still offer the utility of using the unforgeabl= e register, in this case a register of debt covered by reserves. > You also doubt forcing debt to be covered by reserves is a good idea, I go= t that, but suppose we do not discuss this here. > If there are people who think it is a good idea, then they would find havi= ng an unforgeable register of it useful and therefore units needed to mainta= in that register valuable to some extent. >=20 >>=20 >>> I think you do not show the neccesary respect of the market. >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m not sure what is meant here by respect, or how much of it is n= ecessary. I am merely explaining the market. >>=20 >=20 > You are not explaining an existing market but claim that market that is no= t yet there will follow your arguments. >=20 >>> Your rant reminds me of renowed economists who still argue final control= Bitcoin can not have value, you do the same proclaiming that temporary cont= rol of Bitcoin can not have value. >>=20 >> It seems to me you have reversed the meaning of temporary and final. Bitc= oin is useful because of the presumption that there is no finality of contro= l. One presumes an ability to trade control of it for something else. This i= s temporary control. Final control would be the case in which, at some point= , it can no longer be traded, making it worthless at that point. If this is k= nown to be the case it implies that it it worthless at all prior points as w= ell. >>=20 >> These are distinct scenarios. The fact that temporary (in my usage) contr= ol implies the possibility of value does not imply that finality of control d= oes as well. The fact that (renowned or otherwise) people have made errors d= oes not imply that I am making an error. These are both non-sequiturs. >>=20 >>> I say, that temporary control does not have value until means dealing wi= th it are offered, and that is I work on. Thereafter might obtain value if f= inal control is deemed too expensive or not attainable, we shall see. >>=20 >> The analogy to rental of a consumable good does not apply to the case of a= non-consumable good. If it cannot be traded and cannot be consumed it canno= t obtain marketable value. To this point it matters not whether it exists. >>=20 >=20 > I meant with control the control of entries in the register which I think i= s the deeper utility of Bitcoin. Final control is meant to be the opposite o= f temporary which is the time limited control with some expiry. >=20 > Thank you for your thoughts as they help to sharpen my arguments. >=20 > Best, >=20 > Tamas Blummer >=20 >> Best, >> Eric >>=20 >>> Tamas Blummer >>>=20 >>>=20 >=20