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[109.224.244.21]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id af79cd13be357-7cd4687cef2si47580285a.7.2025.05.21.10.52.47 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 21 May 2025 10:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bitcoin-dev@wuille.net designates 109.224.244.21 as permitted sender) client-ip=109.224.244.21; Date: Wed, 21 May 2025 17:52:40 +0000 To: Bob Burnett From: Pieter Wuille Cc: Sjors Provoost , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position Message-ID: <3IcuX8lSFgYKmguLDUoQjb_kJEbqs3XguvDuHLRK6saQ5avdCuC3Porkhlb_kRY1x8xink3WxN40mZVGFejYEnAPmDdMAiBdA_nsGjmJfws=@wuille.net> In-Reply-To: References: <7Q6uglccxrI_LPvP2bKeTwFcBAKJ5u8u6NHtDl-dNev_kplv2lfh46r-z2iflmtnnsa8YWgn1A2M8S0jLORI2GxwNQ7qmfyM2jqQiB6JTiw=@protonmail.com> <7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547@sprovoost.nl> Feedback-ID: 19463299:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: e6bf3915b57877776fa9eda39c8cb14b1ae3bdd1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="b1=_ZNDYVSoRVKUQFJ4ZEmb6NaiZcXZxf309UhLhsXvx8wI" X-Original-Sender: bitcoin-dev@wuille.net X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@wuille.net header.s=protonmail2 header.b="Jb/IcyKM"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bitcoin-dev@wuille.net designates 109.224.244.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bitcoin-dev@wuille.net; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=wuille.net Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --b1=_ZNDYVSoRVKUQFJ4ZEmb6NaiZcXZxf309UhLhsXvx8wI Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, On Wednesday, May 21st, 2025 at 1:24 PM, Bob Burnett wrote: > None of my comments insinuate that deals would not be public or that all = users and all miners would not have access to this service. The product/ser= vice I am working on would be public and anyone could participate. By publicly-enforced I literally mean deals enforced by the public, i.e., t= he Bitcoin network, where anyone is free to participate without needing to = ask anyone for permission (e.g., I could imagine some hypothetical mechanis= m to buy futures of block space directly, as part of Bitcoin's network rule= s). This is in contrast with what I think you're referring to, a business d= eal, known to the public or not, that is enforced by parties knowing each o= ther, and having legal agreements between them, or at least some means of l= egal recourse. The point is that revenue streams for miners that rely on them being identi= fiable real-world parties hurt permissionless of entry to the mining market= , as they'd either need to build up their own contracts with block space us= ers (where a new small-hashrate miner would be in a bad negotiating positio= n), or join a conglomerate of miners that handles these contracts jointly -= requiring asking the conglomerate for permission. > A world in which there is no ability for users to have some level of cert= ainty about access to future blockspace and the cost of that blockspace is = not one that, imo, can scale to the levels that I believe we all hope to at= tain. Blockspace can/should act like any other commodity (think corn or soy= beans) in which sellers (miners) mitigate risk and lock in long term revenu= e streams, and consumers (users) can guarantee their future access and the = cost of that access. Blockspace acting as purely a real-time, spot market i= s not one that I feel is capable of scaling to global levels. And yes, I understand how demand for such services makes sense, and I do no= t fault you for pursuing them. But they are a threat, and I think the Bitco= in ecosystem should think hard about how to avoid their emergence. -- Pieter > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 3IcuX8lSFgYKmguLDUoQjb_kJEbqs3XguvDuHLRK6saQ5avdCuC3Porkhlb_kRY1x8xink3WxN4= 0mZVGFejYEnAPmDdMAiBdA_nsGjmJfws%3D%40wuille.net. --b1=_ZNDYVSoRVKUQFJ4ZEmb6NaiZcXZxf309UhLhsXvx8wI Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bob,
=20
=20
=20

On Wednesday, May 21st, 2025 at 1:24 PM, Bob Burnett <bob.burnet= t@barefootmining.com> wrote:
=20

None of my comments= insinuate that deals would not be public or that all users and all miners = would not have access to this service.  The product/service I am worki= ng on would be public and anyone could participate.


By publicly-enforced I literally mean deals enforced by t= he public, i.e., the Bitcoin network, where anyone is free to participate w= ithout needing to ask anyone for permission (e.g., I could imagine some hyp= othetical mechanism to buy futures of block space directly, as part of Bitc= oin's network rules). This is in contrast with what I think you're referrin= g to, a business deal, known to the public or not, that is enforced by part= ies knowing each other, and having legal agreements between them, or at lea= st some means of legal recourse.


The point is that revenue streams for miners that rel= y on them being identifiable real-world parties hurt permissionless of entr= y to the mining market, as they'd either need to build up their own contrac= ts with block space users (where a new small-hashrate miner would be in a b= ad negotiating position), or join a conglomerate of miners that handles the= se contracts jointly - requiring asking the conglomerate for permission.


=

A world i= n which there is no ability for users to have some level of certainty about= access to future blockspace and the cost of that blockspace is not one tha= t, imo, can scale to the levels that I believe we all hope to attain. = Blockspace can/should act like any other commodity (think corn or soybeans) in which sellers (miners= ) mitigate risk and lock in long term revenue streams, and consumers (users= ) can guarantee their future access and the cost of that access.  Bloc= kspace acting as purely a real-time, spot market is not one that I feel is capable of scaling to global levels.=


And yes, I=20 understand how demand for such services makes sense, and I do not fault=20 you for pursuing them. But they are a threat, and I think the Bitcoin=20 ecosystem should think hard about how to avoid their emergence.

<= p>--

Pieter


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