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Mon, 05 May 2025 17:07:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:688b:b0:6f9:525d:a096 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-709197aa3a7mr15840187b3.3.1746490022968; Mon, 05 May 2025 17:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a81:d448:0:b0:706:b535:945d with SMTP id 00721157ae682-708cfda3e38ms7b3; Mon, 5 May 2025 16:55:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:4446:b0:6f2:9704:405c with SMTP id 00721157ae682-709197c9862mr18215407b3.15.1746489334669; Mon, 05 May 2025 16:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 May 2025 16:55:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Maxwell To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Message-Id: <47079bf1-19de-4354-880d-2d197cecb0a2n@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <16f3af30-985f-40b7-afc3-9faae892d824n@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_353888_2086395228.1746489334304" X-Original-Sender: gmaxwell@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) ------=_Part_353888_2086395228.1746489334304 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_353889_1612303690.1746489334304" ------=_Part_353889_1612303690.1746489334304 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Monday, May 5, 2025 at 11:39:02=E2=80=AFPM UTC Peter Todd wrote: When you originally proposed the scheme that may have been true. But=20 these days you could probably use zero-knowledge-proofs to prove that=20 hash digests are in fact hash digests, without having to include the=20 actual pre-images of those hash digests.=20 The schemes that I'm aware of mostly have huge side-channels in the proof. = =20 I think I constructed one before that didn't have one for proving bilinear= =20 keys, and it only proved a pubkey was a pubkey, but at best it's an extra= =20 constraint. Goes back to what you're trying to accomplish, like assume network capacity= =20 to process/forward blocks as a fixed amount. Your concern with NFTs is them= =20 driving up fees. So now every transaction has to carry a proof its not=20 embedding a jpeg and so the effective throughput of the network is halved= =20 or reduced by 30% or whatever from the proofs. Not a win. And of course= =20 were then imagining something with more cryptographic complexity than the= =20 whole of bitcoin just to close high bandwidth channels. And low bandwidth= =20 channels on the order of 24 to 32-bits per independently adjustable piece= =20 of data still exist. But Amazon doesn't offer a service to store data on S3 forever. It doesn't my example was an economic analysis that just assumed you bought= =20 an investment to yield enough to pay for the S3. If you actually want it= =20 you can construct it as a legal entity. Also of course, S3 only offers storage. Not publication. Things like=20 Citrea (and Lightning) specifically need data publication.=20 Right I might have been unclear. Some people are laboring under a mistaken= =20 belief that the objective of people putting large amounts of data in the=20 blockchain is just to "store stuff" --- and my point is that it's=20 outrageously uneconomical for that. While there may be some on the margin,= =20 the reality is that people storing something believe they're getting some= =20 benefit out of doing it that they don't get from an actual storage=20 solution. On reddit I went over a few=20 examples: https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1kea81d/why_is_this_su= b_quiet_about_the_current_debate/mqi0vfw/ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 47079bf1-19de-4354-880d-2d197cecb0a2n%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_353889_1612303690.1746489334304 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Monday, May 5, 2025 at 11:39:02=E2=80=AFPM UTC Pe= ter Todd wrote:
When you ori= ginally proposed the scheme that may have been true. But
these days you could probably use zero-knowledge-proofs to prove that
hash digests are in fact hash digests, without having to include the
actual pre-images of those hash digests.

The schemes that I'm aware of most= ly have huge side-channels in the proof.=C2=A0 I think I constructed one be= fore that didn't have one for proving bilinear keys, and it only proved a p= ubkey was a pubkey, but at best it's an extra constraint.

<= /div>
Goes back to what you're trying to accomplish, like assume networ= k capacity to process/forward blocks as a fixed amount. Your concern with N= FTs is them driving up fees. So now every transaction has to carry a proof = its not embedding a jpeg and so the effective throughput of the network is = halved or reduced by 30% or whatever from the proofs.=C2=A0 Not a win.=C2= =A0 And of course were then imagining something with more cryptographic com= plexity than the whole of bitcoin just to close high bandwidth channels.=C2= =A0 And low bandwidth channels on the order of 24 to 32-bits per independen= tly adjustable piece of data still exist.


=
But Amazon doesn't offer a servic= e to store data on S3 forever.

It doesn't= my example was an economic analysis that just assumed you bought an invest= ment to yield enough to pay for the S3.=C2=A0 If you actually want it you c= an construct it as a legal entity.

Also of course, S3 only offers storage. Not publication.= Things like
Citrea (and Lightning) specifically need data publication.

Right I might have been unclear.= =C2=A0 Some people are laboring under a mistaken belief that the objective = of people putting large amounts of data in the blockchain is just to "store= stuff" --- and my point is that it's outrageously uneconomical for that.= =C2=A0 While there may be some on the margin, the reality is that people st= oring something believe they're getting some benefit out of doing it that t= hey don't get from an actual storage solution.=C2=A0 On reddit I went over = a few examples:=C2=A0=C2=A0https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1kea81= d/why_is_this_sub_quiet_about_the_current_debate/mqi0vfw/
<= br />

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