From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E47B0826 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 17:37:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-pf0-f172.google.com (mail-pf0-f172.google.com [209.85.192.172]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2327B181 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 17:37:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pf0-f172.google.com with SMTP id j5so3162760pfb.2 for ; Tue, 07 Mar 2017 09:37:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=voskuil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to; bh=dXzuR57aCuLVNSOeU3bY+OHipcEhzg2S5nW0udVgPVg=; b=cRlbfzYMmw9Fj5eh81YuReb97gum8vaDWFU6fJPMsdrhMFScuRZSFgrMqsu+6hFwXc L+0PBiIdMfw+VyjmcwnMvwBewBnLuNeFMvPzllK8v5xayvEaacNE5IeFbXGK65/VJ/+T Kt2QGu2pJikVaxm+68XjLJydy+gRWrTn95gMB2gYeZWUG0MorbhMg6L891q0zZgPva2J 11pqxpuncd0UMC7OgA7dBgE1Mc24wrE49xIJmd7WNhj0rNjMF40tTYZS33+vtYk/R2jt o5B4cLdHwj0M7kZSR+AbmxXc53p5g66wCzgXi6Ti+4xQQonog/W9u05YATenpND3mokA qQHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=dXzuR57aCuLVNSOeU3bY+OHipcEhzg2S5nW0udVgPVg=; b=RjrQ8jogGTb3Cn/+Nhv/uajyX+hYKZCFB+Jj/6Wfu2lA1vT/L9yhffzdkchnoYf+i9 47pMj8elaEZoCyusKquHmPknG66uf6P5x9KUN9Ql7xcJxsY8Z6lAlZGyVd9CkhJwnKDe XOwSpDujlB0Z7f8k4aM9ONbdkoXjNuL22Wt4tP2Ft4jdduNKMkwi8xE8vBgH+IYP7cNI UJBmlOs8mytQIjvcDRVvGZ+8syb0wX7GYxXvEtnLDvGKRL+AlLW/LR8ODQKpN9pH7Niz EbOCaPP/kzAoGSCKX9maIEaD5FdMDVJDfr1zkW3GlMjMnaohnTT13PxIyjTKjoG7lqSg aUuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39nVPwoStgB11kML+XWKFQs8ihx0Fmw48xPyZcCDpN6Wl7+NeCcrgew01cEbS09O9Q== X-Received: by 10.84.208.102 with SMTP id f35mr2085352plh.19.1488908236495; Tue, 07 Mar 2017 09:37:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:600:9000:d69e:c467:7fa5:342:3b51? ([2601:600:9000:d69e:c467:7fa5:342:3b51]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g85sm1034589pfd.89.2017.03.07.09.37.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Mar 2017 09:37:15 -0800 (PST) To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Libbitcoin Development References: <0ba5bf9c-5578-98ce-07ae-036d0d71046b@riseup.net> <964E4801-234F-4E30-A040-2C63274D27F2@posteo.net> From: Eric Voskuil X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N0110 Message-ID: <48f6c6a5-ba7e-cf75-e272-e713321f04b8@voskuil.org> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 09:37:15 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0es2irxUKE31CaAQ2d8FMpNfHRQ7TxuHL" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 17:43:34 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Moving towards user activated soft fork activation X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 17:37:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --0es2irxUKE31CaAQ2d8FMpNfHRQ7TxuHL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/06/2017 05:07 PM, Edmund Edgar via bitcoin-dev wrote: > On 7 March 2017 at 08:23, Gareth Williams wrote: >> What you're describing is a hashpower activated soft fork to censor transactions, in response to a user activated soft fork that the majority of hashpower disagrees with. This definition of censorship would apply to all validation. A miner is free to select whatever transactions he wants, for whatever reasons he wants. Bitcoin's defense against censorship (and disruption) is in the broad distribution of over 50% (anecdotally) of the hash power among a large number of people. > Well, they'd be censoring transactions to prevent the thing from > activating in the first place. (As opposed to censoring a subset of > those transactions to enforce the new rule, which is the behaviour > that the people promoting the change want.) Exactly, a soft fork expects that people start rejecting a previously valid style of transaction, or that they ignore it. It's perfectly reasonable to conclude that some miners may continue to accept the soft-fork-invalidated transactions and instead reject the new style of transactions as invalid. Reliance on their acceptance of the soft fork is based on the weak assumption that they won't change their software or that they live in fear of a retaliatory POW change. >> Bitcoin only works if the majority of hashpower is not hostile to the users. Honesty in this context refers to double spending. Selecting a different rule set effectively moves one to another coin, which is not dishonest (hostile to anyone). Miners have zero technical or ethical obligation to follow any particular set of rules. Bitcoin has one golden rule, run whatever code you want. Security is based on decentralization, not well-behaved people (or well-behaved software). > This is true. But what we're talking about here is hostility to *a > particular proposal to change the network rules* which is (in this > hypothetical case) supported by the economic majority of users. This > doesn't, in itself, break Bitcoin, although the economic majority are > of course always free to hard-fork to something new if they're > unhappy. Again spot on. Users of the money purchase security from miners. Miners are under no obligation to provide that service nor are users under any obligation to purchase it. One thing to consider is how different the landscape would look if every person on the planet was a miner, and the economy was similarly distributed. Would it be easier to get 51% hash power on board with a soft fork, or some much higher percentage on board with a hard fork? It seems likely that any proposed material change would fail. Regardless of how one feels about that, it is the nature of a sound money that it doesn't change. e --0es2irxUKE31CaAQ2d8FMpNfHRQ7TxuHL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJYvu/MAAoJEDzYwH8LXOFOMsAH/1ZEID79z3okKQhYeFRpAL4v 8g6KCnuye2FlwtXdQ3+i2aS5HNcYS+qaviBGo50DIFfou9uC//z0ffbzxdR2SonF x/YL1xA0ZLsfONWdrkb/zZO8+zflUCh5eG/9P25W9t2YXr0g4ya64HWOHLOkw1/D J0Pg9ph/Rm2allNVd0MT3ZMs9bK4qtbuRjergsNWYsg+Y/9t0ISdeoN0uN+Vhx0Z gbAsQ8dN5le3NDVGYjVZ7jIEcYANQE/0nzMZtI2MUC8zvd36Tjno3jlLrxcx8xTH 2FkyvcIxn1G4uWLmIhzuQgdeV+sPyfKGt5EZb1w+iz9jXdiLf92FcAFID/gk7lM= =00vX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0es2irxUKE31CaAQ2d8FMpNfHRQ7TxuHL--