From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YIOlU-0006Kh-Hw for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 02 Feb 2015 21:42:40 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.216.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.51; envelope-from=brian.erdelyi@gmail.com; helo=mail-qa0-f51.google.com; Received: from mail-qa0-f51.google.com ([209.85.216.51]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1YIOlT-0004TO-7c for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 02 Feb 2015 21:42:40 +0000 Received: by mail-qa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id f12so31093333qad.10 for ; Mon, 02 Feb 2015 13:42:33 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.224.19.137 with SMTP id a9mr46125826qab.83.1422913353761; Mon, 02 Feb 2015 13:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.38] ([64.147.83.112]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id b109sm19396607qgf.40.2015.02.02.13.42.32 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 02 Feb 2015 13:42:33 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-DE0273E6-EDD9-49D1-9B53-1A112ADA3D33; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Brian Erdelyi X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (12B466) In-Reply-To: <54CFE780.1040400@worcel.com> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 17:42:34 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <49715A29-522A-4718-948D-8E4923EB2FF9@gmail.com> References: <27395C55-CF59-4E65-83CA-73F903272C5F@gmail.com> <54CE3816.6020505@bitwatch.co> <68C03646-02E7-43C6-9B73-E4697F3AA5FD@gmail.com> <57186618-F010-42E6-A757-B617C4001B5B@gmail.com> <4B53C1B0-A677-4460-8A69-C45506424D7F@gmail.com> <54CFE780.1040400@worcel.com> To: Pedro Worcel X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (brian.erdelyi[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE RAW: Quoted-printable line longer than 76 chars -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature -0.0 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address X-Headers-End: 1YIOlT-0004TO-7c Cc: "bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal to address Bitcoin malware X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 21:42:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail-DE0273E6-EDD9-49D1-9B53-1A112ADA3D33 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-80AFB902-E20B-42AF-BC1F-4DB1B16179B9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Apple-Mail-80AFB902-E20B-42AF-BC1F-4DB1B16179B9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Transaction initiated and signed on device #1. Transaction is sent to devic= e #2. On device #2 you verify the transaction and if authorized you provide= the second signature. Brian Erdelyi Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 2, 2015, at 5:09 PM, Pedro Worcel wrote: >=20 > Where would you verify that? >=20 >> On 2/3/2015 10:03 AM, Brian Erdelyi wrote: >> Joel, >>=20 >> The mobile device should show you the details of the transaction (i.e. am= ount and bitcoin address). Once you verify this is the intended recipient a= nd amount you approve it on the mobile device. If the address was replaced,= you should see this on the mobile device as it won=E2=80=99t match where yo= u were intending to send it. You can then not provide the second signature.= >>=20 >> Brian Erdelyi >>=20 >>> On Feb 2, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Joel Joonatan Kaartinen wrote: >>>=20 >>> If the attacker has your desktop computer but not the mobile that's acti= ng as an independent second factor, how are you then supposed to be able to t= ell you're not signing the correct transaction on the mobile? If the address= was replaced with the attacker's address, it'll look like everything is ok.= >>>=20 >>> - Joel >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Brian Erdelyi w= rote: >>>>=20 >>>> > Confusing or not, the reliance on multiple signatures as offering gre= ater security than single relies on the independence of multiple secrets. If= the secrets cannot be shown to retain independence in the envisioned threat= scenario (e.g. a user's compromised operating system) then the benefit redu= ces to making the exploit more difficult to write, which, once written, redu= ces to no benefit. Yet the user still suffers the r= educed utility arising from greater complexity, while being led to believe i= n a false promise. >>>>=20 >>>> Just trying to make sure I understand what you=E2=80=99re saying. Are y= ou eluding to that if two of the three private keys get compromised there is= no gain in security? Although the likelihood of this occurring is lower, i= t is possible. >>>>=20 >>>> As more malware targets bitcoins I think the utility is evident. Given= how final Bitcoin transactions are, I think it=E2=80=99s worth trying to fi= nd methods to help verify those transactions (if a user deems it to be high-= risk enough) before the transaction is completed. The balance is trying to d= evise something that users do not find too burdensome. >>>>=20 >>>> Brian Erdelyi >>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- >>>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, >>>> sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is= your >>>> hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought >>>> leadership blogs to news, videos, case stud= ies, tutorials and more. Take a >>>> look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, >> sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is y= our >> hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought >> leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a= >> look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- > Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, > sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is yo= ur > hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought > leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a= > look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development --Apple-Mail-80AFB902-E20B-42AF-BC1F-4DB1B16179B9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Transaction initiated and signed on de= vice #1.  Transaction is sent to device #2.  On device #2 you veri= fy the transaction and if authorized you provide the second signature.
=

Brian Erdelyi

Sent from my iPhone

O= n Feb 2, 2015, at 5:09 PM, Pedro Worcel <pedro@worcel.com> wrote:

<= div> =20 =20 =20 Where would you verify that?

On 2/3/2015 10:03 AM, Brian Erdelyi wrote:
Joel,

The mobile device should show you the details of the transaction (i.e. amount and bitcoin address).  Once you verify= this is the intended recipient and amount you approve it on the mobile device.  If the address was replaced, you should see thi= s on the mobile device as it won=E2=80=99t match where you were intend= ing to send it.  You can then not provide the second signature.

Brian Erdelyi

On Feb 2, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Joel Joonatan Kaartinen <joel.kaartinen@gmail.com> wrote:

If the attacker has your desktop computer but not the mobile that's acting as an independent second factor, how are you then supposed to be able to tell you're not signing the correct transaction on the mobile? If the address was replaced with the attacker's address, it'll look like everything is ok.

- Joel

On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Brian Erdelyi <brian.erdelyi@gmail.com> wrote:

> Confusing or not, the reliance on multiple signatures as offering greater security than single relies on the independence of multiple secrets. If the secrets cannot be shown to retain independence in the envisioned threat scenario (e.g. a user's compromised operating system) then the benefit reduces to making the exploit more difficult to write, which, once written, reduces to no benefit. Yet the user still suffers the reduced utility arising from greater complexity, while being led to believe in a false promise.

Just trying to make sure I understand what you=E2=80=99re saying.  Are you eluding to= that if two of the three private keys get compromised there is no gain in security?  Although the likelihood of this occurring is lower, it is possible.

As more malware targets bitcoins I think the utility is evident.  Given how final Bitcoin transactions are, I think it=E2=80=99s worth trying t= o find methods to help verify those transactions (if a user deems it to be high-risk enough) before the transaction is completed.  The balance is trying to devise something that users do not find too burdensome.

Brian Erdelyi
----------------------------------------------------------------------------= --
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.s= ourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development<= br class=3D""> 




-------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your=

hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/<=
/pre>
      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinf=
o/bitcoin-development

=20
--------------------= ----------------------------------------------------------
D= ive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,<= br>sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media= , is your
hub for all things parallel software development, f= rom weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case st= udies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversa= tion now. http://goparallel.s= ourceforge.net/
= _______________________________________________
Bitcoi= n-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-developm= ent
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