From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from <steve@mistfpga.net>) id 1TJRbR-0005LZ-TR for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 03 Oct 2012 16:15:17 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of mistfpga.net designates 208.91.199.219 as permitted sender) client-ip=208.91.199.219; envelope-from=steve@mistfpga.net; helo=us2.outbound.mailhostbox.com; Received: from us2.outbound.mailhostbox.com ([208.91.199.219]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1TJRbN-0004fU-GQ for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 03 Oct 2012 16:15:17 +0000 Received: from [10.10.10.55] (5ad2e75a.bb.sky.com [90.210.231.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: steve@mistfpga.net) by us2.outbound.mailhostbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DDEF06991AB for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>; Wed, 3 Oct 2012 16:15:06 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <506C6488.8080007@mistfpga.net> Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2012 17:15:04 +0100 From: steve <steve@mistfpga.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bitcoin Development List <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> References: <CAMGNxUu=LTZyAxKt3pAYSVxyhHBU9pyJPCiFs-tA_weYNNXbtw@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CAMGNxUu=LTZyAxKt3pAYSVxyhHBU9pyJPCiFs-tA_weYNNXbtw@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <CAMGNxUu=LTZyAxKt3pAYSVxyhHBU9pyJPCiFs-tA_weYNNXbtw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A020208.506C648B.0193, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.72 on 172.16.214.9 X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.0 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list X-Headers-End: 1TJRbN-0004fU-GQ Subject: [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: Re: Bitcoin Testing Project X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development> List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2012 16:15:18 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I think he had a typo in the CC. here is a forward of the email. You will have to work out the indentations yourselves :) - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bitcoin Testing Project Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 22:01:19 -0700 From: Peter Vessenes <peter@coinlab.com> To: steve <steve@mistfpga.net> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 6:15 PM, steve <steve@mistfpga.net> wrote: > On 01/10/2012 17:52, Peter Vessenes wrote: >> I'm a big proponent of a testing project. > > I am very happy to hear this, however, your actual words are > slightly evasive. I do not expect you to be up to speed on this. > Gavin started a project called 'the bitcoin testing project' This > project solicited donations, about 80 coins last time I checked. > However these 80 odd coins were donated to 'the bitcoin testing > project' This would seem to be an official bitcoin (both protocol > and client) testing project. I signed up to work on this, and > organise as much as i could of this. for various reasons I did not > manage to do the testing I wanted to on 0.7 i over committed > myself. > > Are the donations solicited for the 'bitcoin testing project) > funds going to be given to 'the foundation'? > > > Not as far as I know; sounds like they should go toward testing. > > > Does the foundation support 'the bitcoin testing project'? does > the foundation have any involvement with 'the bitcoin testing > project'? > > I personally support the idea of a testing project. I would like > the Foundation to fund it if it can't crowdsource funding from the > forums; sounds like so far the support hasn't been enough to get > all the work done. The Foundation has no formal role with the > bitcoin testing project that I'm aware of. > > > > >> I think if one could self organize that Gavin and team wanted to >> bless we could put up some BTC as bounties or funding. We won't >> have our heads around the foundation budget for a few more >> weeks, but self-organization is often slower than budgeting. :) > > Im ready to go, more or less. Please check out the links in my > previous emails. I have over 400 testcases (8 platforms * 50 > release tests) - Also I am not sure what you mean by bless, I take > it that is a euphemism for pay? > > Wow, that's awesome! I use bless to mean "Gavin saying that it > sounds good." > > > I have tried my hardest to get bettermeans to work, but it doesnt. > It does show quite a lot of work that I have done though. If you > were to say to me, 'steve, by monday we need end to end, > requirements based testing' It would be done. (I have already spent > over 4 months on this) Leaderless leadership is something I am > having a hard time with, bettermeans is excellent at this. But I > have found very little in regards to voting and polling that > integrates with the project in an effortless way like bettermeans. > > I understand that the budget from the foundation is something that > needs to be worked on and organised. I offer my services in this > area (qa only). I would be happy to submit my cv and refs for > this, if required. > > I am now feeling frustrated and useless. has my last 4 months of > work been for nothing? it feels like it. I know I bang on about > processes but they are sorted, you can only attract talent like > Arklan if he has a process to follow. i feel like a broken record. > > I'm a little late to this conversation, so I don't know what to say > in response. I will answer your questions below, though. > > > tl;dr version 1 - Will donations to the 'bitcoin testing project' > as started by gavin going to be given to the foundation? > > > I don't expect so, although we'd take them if whoever is in charge > of the testing project wants to do so. I'd expect that if the > testing project is good and community approved and supported by the > dev team the funding flow would go the other way, but we'll need to > wait for budgets to get finished. > > > 2 - Is the work bill hees and myself going to be binned? > > > I have no idea whatsoever, I would guess that's up to you and bill > hees and the dev team. > > > 3 - I feel like I have the knowledge and drive to push this, but I > cant do it on my own. > > > Totally understand the feeling! > > > 4 - Is bill or I entitled to any of the cash raised for 'the > bitcoin testing project' > > > I have no idea what the bitcoin testing project finance situation > is. > > > 5 - Do I have to join the foundation to have a say in how the > project (testing) is done? > > > Nope > > > 6 - sorry for being so mercenary, but am I going to receive any > coin for work I have done? > > > Ditto to above > > > 7 - It really probably is the time for a bitcoin-test list to > appear. Is there anything I can do to make this happen? > > I don't have much to do with this. > > >> This is just my opinion, but I would like very, very much to >> move the current specification into unit tests so that anyone >> could validate their alternate bitcoin implementation. This is a >> lot of work, some of which has been done, much of which hasn't. > > have a look at the stuff in bettermeans. I personally think we can > go a step further and publish guidelines (similar to RFC's and all > the tests that we would do against a ref client) > > > Cool, I will check it out. I agree with the RFC oriented approach, > or perhaps a canonical test suite for validation and verification. > > > But I dont want to waste any more time on stuff that is going to > be ignored, life is short. > > >> So, my two cents, plus an offer to bring it up at our next >> budgeting meeting. > > I accept that offer. and I really appreciate it. I have some more > questions I would like you to ask in regards to QA. (Gavin and I > skyped about this a while ago and we didnt really come to a > resolution, weworked out the problems though ;) ) > > I have an exceptionally detailed qa process (based off the game > certification process) - but I have gone on about this at length > in previous messages. > > I thank you for your email and your involvement with this, but do > you think we are closer to getting stuff tested? call my bluff... > Not one person has asked for login details to my proposals - and i > even have a bugzilla version now. > > I need to sleep. sorry if i rambled. > > nite nite, > > steve > > > Thanks for all the details. I'm trying to go into extra detail in > my response to you because people are still figuring out the > Foundation's situation with all things Bitcoin. I can't offer you > any promises for your future, but I'm personally really psyched to > hear about these tests. I'll let other more knowledgeable folks > jump in on the technology side of things. > > > >> Peter > > >> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:28 AM, steve <steve@mistfpga.net> >> wrote: > >> On 01/10/2012 14:52, Arklan Uth Oslin wrote: >>>>> Hi guys. >>>>> >>>>> So, as I mentioned on the bitcointalk.org forums thread >>>>> about the foundation, I want to get involved in the QA side >>>>> of bitcoin development. I've done functional testing in >>>>> the video game industry for years. > >> Nice one, I worked in games for quite a few years. (before >> getting into finance then pentesting) there are about 6 keen >> testers now. maybe we should get a bitcoin-test mailing list, >> where we can discuss stuff without disturbing the dev team. > >>>>> I've read all the messages in this thread, but I'm left >>>>> unclear how I can most effectively and quickly being >>>>> helping out. Could I get a bit of a directional nudge? > >> Great question... for me I feel structure is the most important >> thing to sort out first. However we desperately need detailed >> testcases for the release of a new version. - Not too much on >> the change log stuff, more on the noddy stuff (as gavin points >> out below), downloading and making sure it works on a non dev >> machine, make sure the wallet isnt overwritten, etc.) doing games >> qa I imagine this would be an ideal place for you to start. I >> have a MSDN and TechNet licence so if you need some reference ms >> virtual machines I can help you out. > >> However we need some testcase software. Please check out what >> was done on bettermeans for the stuff I was planning out... > >> It details everything from recompense and testcases. bettermeans >> kinda died a death though... > >> check out: > >> Bitcoin over all- >> https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/4180/wiki/Page_index >> discussion https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/4180/boards > >> 0.7 https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/4256/boards and >> https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/4256/wiki > >> I still have the testcases, but until we get some proper >> testcase software I am loathed to publish them in a half arsed >> format. (they worked well on bettermeans, then just vanished one >> day...) what testcase software are you familiar with? > >> apart from that, what do you feel you can do for the project? >> how long have you been involved in bitcoin? It may well be >> worth reading up all the dev stuff on the wiki so you can get you >> head around how the bitcoin protocol is different from the daemon >> and qt client. What do you think you can and will enjoy doing? >> What is your skill set in regard to networking, crypto and >> operating systems. (not that you need any, in any we still want >> and need you. :) > >> there really is room for you to do whatever role you want, and >> as little or as much as you want - however funding is now a very >> tricky issue. so much so that I am not sure I want anything to >> do with it(distribution of coin based on work.). - I just paid >> for some logo spec work out of my own pocket (for example). I >> have some testers i know irl who are willing to work for coin. > >> NOTE: This response has nothing to do with the bitcoin >> foundation. I am not a member of the foundation. I do not speak >> for them or even probably with them. I am still trying to work >> out how much qa the foundation should be responsible for, and/how >> it is supposed to work. I think the games cert process would be >> ideal for this. This however this a discussion that probably >> wont have my involvement. (personally I believe that the >> foundation should publish requirements with example code and >> testcases for each aspect of the reference client. (on reference >> platforms - I do not expect many to agree with this though) > >> As a side note, what happens to the donations to the bitcoin >> testing project? do they get moved over to the foundation? this >> question is bigger than this email. as far as I know they are >> all on an address Gavin holds. Actually I would like to be >> involved in any discussions that would impact QA, does this mean >> I need to join the foundation or just go lone wolf? > >> tbh I dont really understand foundations. I always thought they >> were just a tax dodge. > >> Sorry for the long message. :) > >>>>> >>>>> Arklan >>>>> >>>>> ---------- As long as there is light, the darkness holds >>>>> no fear. And yet, even in the deepest black, there is life. >>>>> - Arklan Uth Oslin >>>>> >>>>> I want to leave this world the same way I came into it: >>>>> backwards and on fire. - Arklan Uth Oslin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 12:26 PM, steve >>>>> <steve@mistfpga.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Gavin, >>>>> >>>>> Sorry for the delayed response, I wanted to take a couple >>>>> of days to reflect on your email. >>>>> >>>>> On 26/09/2012 19:09, Gavin Andresen wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And their are other methods too. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The GUI::Test package for perl will allow this to be >>>>> greatly automated. (I have done this before on the >>>>> localisation of photoshop.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> this why we need detailed testscripts and plans. so we >>>>> know what has and hasnt been done. The more boring the task >>>>> the more work that needs to go into testcase development. >>>>> This is the area I see as my greatest failing last time. I >>>>> have a large number of virtual machines and should have at >>>>> least this work. But we need very detailed testcases. >>>>> with decent testplans just downloading the software, >>>>> syncing the block chain, syncing an existing wallet, >>>>> rescanning the blockchain and verifying the balance would >>>>> cover a large number of tests. The idea behind having lots >>>>> of very specific testcases is you get to see what tests >>>>> have not been run. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I understand your concern, however I have taken a couple >>>>> of days to reflect on this and I still strongly feel that >>>>> in order to make sure that this sticks, and is still useful >>>>> in 1 years time we need to lay proper foundations. Those >>>>> foundations are not word documents, spreadsheets, etc. >>>>> they are selecting the right tools for the job. >>>>> >>>>> We can gain so much benefit from using 3rd party software. >>>>> (bettermeans would rock if it wasnt rotting) >>>>> >>>>> I am sure you could do your coding work just using vi, but >>>>> an sdk makes it much easier and allows you to work in a >>>>> more productive manner. >>>>> >>>>> I have had a couple of off list emails with some testers >>>>> and they also feel that it is very important to make sure >>>>> we have a sound foundation (mantis is so much more than >>>>> just a bug reporting tool, I see the bug reporting >>>>> functionality as secondary to the main test run >>>>> functionality - but it doesnt have to be mantis based, we >>>>> do need workflow and testcase software though - and proper >>>>> software for this is much better than just a massive google >>>>> doc.) however I am checking out some other software that >>>>> has been recommended. It will be very hard to change 'the >>>>> process' once we have something we are used too (just look >>>>> at the current resistance) I promise nothing will change >>>>> for the dev team. But test does need other tools, and >>>>> processes. >>>>> >>>>> If you feel that strongly that I am going about this the >>>>> wrong way, I am happy to step back and let someone else >>>>> sort it out (I will still do all the testing I possibly >>>>> can). I would feel that this would be a real shame and we >>>>> have the chance to setup requirements to functionality to >>>>> tests all with traceability. why not do it right from the >>>>> start? >>>>> >>>>> I will open up my vps' somepoint over the next few days >>>>> and you can see what I mean. I will setup a fake git >>>>> project, and sort out the interactions. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> > > > > How fast is your code? >>>>>> 3 out of 4 devs don\\\'t know how their code performs in >>>>>> production. Find out how slow your code is with >>>>>> AppDynamics Lite. >>>>>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;262219672;13503038;z? >>>>>> http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >>>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> > - > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> >> > Got visibility? >>>>> Most devs has no idea what their production app looks >>>>> like. Find out how fast your code is with AppDynamics >>>>> Lite. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;262219671;13503038;y? >>>>> http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> > > Got visibility? >>> Most devs has no idea what their production app looks like. >>> Find out how fast your code is with AppDynamics Lite. >>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;262219671;13503038;y? >>> http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>> > >>> > > > > - -- - ------------------------------ [image: CoinLab Logo]PETER VESSENES CEO *peter@coinlab.com * / 206.486.6856 / SKYPE: vessenes 811 FIRST AVENUE / SUITE 480 / SEATTLE, WA 98104 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJQbGSIAAoJEFvEB9dQFvtQw1YH+wW3QDMHHV7kf7ZQXvAswv5T S2htfdgp1DBYBatoJB9fUU3hgHTEz1UhENH509SjS1/dxHuIxguJkbgmuSdoeB/4 rDuuYzQVcmym/G1YXvmAkCDk5/fUY4RKlCDGLg9MVMpVFhLIr6Jiwxd0NiIqWm9K aE2bXijiTIRp1sNFxJh5SZTh9/rz1zF8TU3LBWyCegISwyBH2XeIIbVgORoMDBlm n8yKGwPSg5PaH/eWhXR17OUMPbX6xGlMqTmBo7BZDCwPpZU470rkDsPywsn55mAf W6EQhFjxpSCnmZwRhrkdM/Le/0ySSUvM4spPu7MlQ6ekGP2gBzzUPbKnTGHzNgQ= =r57G -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----