From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ukelg-0004mD-O4 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 18:18:36 +0000 Received: from mail-oa0-f51.google.com ([209.85.219.51]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1Ukelf-0005np-0T for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 18:18:36 +0000 Received: by mail-oa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id f4so2497904oah.38 for ; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 11:18:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type :x-gm-message-state; bh=P2+EkCfHyUJ1bIP2KL12gb3cIRHpdXFWWv0MXRXyj58=; b=g9J08PIeZkh3gzabaSzrlFDjeSyli0zFrCdw2YalYi7oXOLp97MvbnxPE3ETdWv6ga atYf0Z6yiD2vw252ThKZy5mnh6Go0BEHH1Aaq6C/ZPmTur08IMhCl8lgHoXCpRRkTrrI k5ZYdmEVVXDcYPtm6J+1r7afFr/5lc9KFWsEUzLx4qtffMGJl4CtEQtwKQ9oiSzGerb/ JfjVtM0AAWWElgybFAHHCpdNmVYUjLKO0EW6LAgMsDi7sgwYaawtYXT0Hi/lL/fJXxmB GrxZCZkHE7nwegQtOPCLCaQkj4qNDM3qFmnVrpCFLg0tfdTvX8d6lMUp4rdBVXoxLFHs GurA== X-Received: by 10.182.24.131 with SMTP id u3mr19351337obf.29.1370542709337; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 11:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.118] (adsl-71-131-181-199.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net. [71.131.181.199]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id z5sm59263855obw.4.2013.06.06.11.18.27 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 06 Jun 2013 11:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51B0D272.5000304@monetize.io> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 11:18:26 -0700 From: Mark Friedenbach Organization: Monetize.io Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Vessenes References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090200020309020602030105" X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnYHPNZitOYS1jdvIUqnNVQYeGFB2VSP4RJdV29T8+e5xdcYKCKLCdcLxgY8ILyhB8LGrxZ X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Headers-End: 1Ukelf-0005np-0T Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Revocability with known trusted escrow services? X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 18:18:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090200020309020602030105 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 If a technical solution could be found, I don't doubt that it will quickly become the only legal way to do transfers in the U.S. Peter, you are Executive Director of the Bitcoin Foundation. I would like to know that your efforts are focused on fighting this archaic world view, not bending over backwards to comply with it. Mark On 6/5/13 5:19 PM, Peter Vessenes wrote: > So, this http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/the-last-straw-for-bitcoin-1059608-1.html?pg=1 article got posted today, noting that FinCEN thinks irrevocable payments are money laundering tools. > > I will hold my thoughts about the net social good of rent-seeking large corporations taking money from consumers over fraudulent reversals. Actually, I won't, I just said it. > > At any rate, it got me thinking, can we layer on revocability somehow without any protocol change, as an opt-in? > > My initial scheme is a trusted (hah) escrow service that issues time promises for signing. If it doesn't receive a cancel message, it will sign at the end of the time. > > The addresses would be listed by the escrow service, or in an open registry, so you could see if you were going to have a delay period when you saw a transaction go out. > > This seems sort of poor to me, it imagines that mythical thing, a trusted escrow service, and is vulnerable to griefing, but I thought I'd see if some of the brighter minds than me can come up with a layer-on approach here. > > When I think about it, I can imagine that I would put a good number of my coins in a one day reversible system, because I would have warning if someone wanted to try and spend them, and could do something about it. I'm not sure if it gets me anything over a standard escrow arrangement, though. > > Peter > > -- > > ------------------------- > > CoinLab LogoPETER VESSENES > CEO > > *peter@coinlab.com * / 206.486.6856 / SKYPE: vessenes > 71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300 / SEATTLE, WA 98104 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments: > 1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations > 2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services > 3. A single system of record for all IT processes > http://p.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j > > > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJRsNJyAAoJEAdzVfsmodw4KBgP/A0ozXRdY0YbaFYL5tyWp+xO OdOKbVFSQynHMws+CyA47x/DgiUbzrRwmx3fN7N67pPizYpjQLfJEwNkr6oy0Ga6 bbubYIz+TLI7sPS0B+ENg6XboChP+ZE7TPC56SyNgPUALwzsvcGZEYCHwwvIUx3F EcUtXTw+VsBu935nRTvKj2HXruU94CaCiapS0knvgWg1/sB/PRFDQzu+fbBiLSL0 xWiuRaPs4dt+LCK2rfYtysKSv2S0FjOOwZ/Cj2J3KRtqTOnTSE2MZNAfNcMGA89u LwWAfZohXywk2mBOk6avYxi5I0nNOndzfKQZgyHMH6zYdIP8B4gtBMxNP4CtsLaH GWNdvYcxILcbeYqJUqlZfJamKkI0rAxgdk20YSaCAgU6rmJ8PQ4Ryl4uTS5i0xOb xfMmHT68SOsvfL8XWobpMidVIUA+vKDZbd5AmJ9RCvJV5mj0Mrt/nJQM04NEQmtE gb29fA1vh+nNKkPoVkyU02ghBYznurV+GMd5iFe8LObg6WxcIImadI1tdPpgINoK glHeUl0zGXsbZDodk7imeZA3DXIf5xa9LfoVmJZrMMB/c3SQqRMwtUX04dMYQiCG Gq4eisPXrUwepZ6hSgXqGktXYKn9dIlXR43zl4+ZBDjsAIiRiipK12WCz3pUTDow /Xcx2iVrRWcZQefxJ3dz =o0rL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------090200020309020602030105 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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If a technical solution could be found, I don't doubt that it will quickly become the only legal way to do transfers in the U.S.

Peter, you are Executive Director of the Bitcoin Foundation. I would like to know that your efforts are focused on fighting this archaic world view, not bending over backwards to comply with it.

Mark
On 6/5/13 5:19 PM, Peter Vessenes wrote:
> So, this http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/the-last-straw-for-bitcoin-1059608-1.html?pg=1  article got posted today, noting that FinCEN thinks irrevocable payments are money laundering tools.
>
> I will hold my thoughts about the net social good of rent-seeking large corporations taking money from consumers over fraudulent reversals. Actually, I won't, I just said it.
>
> At any rate, it got me thinking, can we layer on revocability somehow without any protocol change, as an opt-in?
>
> My initial scheme is a trusted (hah) escrow service that issues time promises for signing. If it doesn't receive a cancel message, it will sign at the end of the time.
>
> The addresses would be listed by the escrow service, or in an open registry, so you could see if you were going to have a delay period when you saw a transaction go out.
>
> This seems sort of poor to me, it imagines that mythical thing, a trusted escrow service, and is vulnerable to griefing, but I thought I'd see if some of the brighter minds than me can come up with a layer-on approach here.
>
> When I think about it, I can imagine that I would put a good number of my coins in a one day reversible system, because I would have warning if someone wanted to try and spend them, and could do something about it. I'm not sure if it gets me anything over a standard escrow arrangement, though.
>
> Peter
>
> --
>
> -------------------------
>
> CoinLab LogoPETER VESSENES
> CEO
>
> *peter@coinlab.com <mailto:peter@coinlab.com> * /  206.486.6856  / SKYPE: vessenes
> 71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300  /  SEATTLE, WA 98104
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:
> 1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations
> 2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services
> 3. A single system of record for all IT processes
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

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