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[76.111.96.126]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id h6sm130578091qej.4.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Oct 2013 13:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <525C5211.30202@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:20:33 -0400 From: Alan Reiner User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Gronager References: <20130519132359.GA12366@netbook.cypherspace.org> <5199C3DE.901@gmail.com> <525C3B4E.2040406@ceptacle.com> In-Reply-To: <525C3B4E.2040406@ceptacle.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: github.com] -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (etotheipi[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1VVod6-0006S3-9n Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] is there a way to do bitcoin-staging? X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 20:20:43 -0000 Michael, Very interesting that you have tackled that off the radar. I didn't know anyone else was working on anything similar. I'm sure you saw the recent Armory-funding announcement, so understandably I have other priorities in recent past and near future, but I think you should connect with Mark Friedenbach about this topic. He solicited donations for working on my idea, and has been doing proof-of-concept for for the last few months. In fact, he was just looking for funding for another 3 months, and Armory Technologies, Inc, just offered up 50 BTC for him to continue (@Mark, whoops, I haven't actually paid you yet; contact me to work out details). For now, my ability to participate directly is limited, but I am still very interested to see the ideas developed further, as well as provide a first test of this whole staging-area idea. I devised it originally for the UBC/Reiner-tree concept, but there's no reason it couldn't be used for any other type of sweeping change to the protocol. -Alan On 10/14/2013 02:43 PM, Michael Gronager wrote: > Hi Alan, > > What you describe in the ultimate blockchain compression I have already > coded the authenticated datastructure part of in libcoin > (https://github.com/libcoin/libcoin) - next step is to include a p2pool > style mining, where a parallel chain serves several purposes: > 1. to validate the root hash at a higher frequency than the 10 min > 2. to enable distributed mining, easily (part of libcoind) > 3. to utilize the soft fork by defining the root hash in coinbase blocks > as v3 and once we cross the limit all blocks are v3. > > I will have a closer look at you bitcoin talk post to see how well my > approach and ideas fit to yours. > > Michael > > On 20/5/13 08:34 , Alan Reiner wrote: >> This is exactly what I was planning to do with the inappropriately-named >> "Ultimate Blockchain Compression >> ". I wanted to >> reorganize the blockchain data into an authenticated tree, indexed by >> TxOut script (address), instead of tx-hash. Much like a regular merkle >> tree, you can store the root in the block header, and communicate >> branches of that tree to nodes, to prove inclusion (and exclusion!) of >> TxOuts for any given script/address. Additionally, you can include at >> each node, the sum of BTC in all nodes below it, which offers some other >> nice benefits. >> >> I think this idea is has epic upside-potential for bitcoin if it works >> -- even "SPV" nodes could query their unspent TxOut list for their >> wallet from any untrusted peer and compare the result directly to the >> blockheaders/POW. Given nothing but the headers, you can verify the >> balance of 100 addresses with 250 kB. But also epic failure-potential >> in terms of feasibility and cost-to-benefit for miners. For it to >> really work, it's gotta be part of the mainnet validation rules, but no >> way it can be evaluated realistically without some kind of "staging". >> Therefore, I had proposed that this be merge-mined on a "meta-chain" >> first...get a bunch of miners on board to agree to merge mine and see it >> in action. It seemed like a perfectly non-disruptive way to prove out a >> particular idea before we actually consider making a protocol change >> that significant. Even if it stayed on its own meta chain, as long as >> there is some significant amount of hashpower working on it, it can >> still be a useful tool. >> >> Unfortunately, my experience with merged mining is minimal, so I'm still >> not clear how feasible/reliable it is as an alternative to direct >> blockchain integration. That's a discussion I'd like to have. >> >> -Alan >> >> >> On 5/19/2013 11:08 AM, Peter Vessenes wrote: >>> I think this is a very interesting idea. As Bitcoiners, we often stuff >>> things into the 'alt chain' bucket in our heads; I wonder if this idea >>> works better as a curing period, essentially an extended version of >>> the current 100 block wait for mined coins. >>> >>> An alternate setup comes to mind; I can imagine this working as a sort >>> of gift economy; people pay real BTC for merge-mined "beta BTC" as a >>> way to support development. There is no doubt a more elegant and >>> practical solution that might have different economic and crypto >>> characteristics. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Adam Back >> > wrote: >>> >>> Is there a way to experiment with new features - eg committed >>> coins - that >>> doesnt involve an altcoin in the conventional sense, and also >>> doesnt impose >>> a big testing burden on bitcoin main which is a security and >>> testing risk? >>> >>> eg lets say some form of merged mine where an alt-coin lets call it >>> bitcoin-staging? where the coins are the same coins as on >>> bitcoin, the >>> mining power goes to bitcoin main, so some aspect of merged >>> mining, but no >>> native mining. and ability to use bitcoins by locking them on >>> bitcoin to >>> move them to bitcoin-staging and vice versa (ie exchange them 1:1 >>> cryptographically, no exchange). >>> >>> Did anyone figure anything like that out? Seems vaguely doable and >>> maybe productive. The only people with coins at risk of defects >>> in a new >>> feature, or insufficiently well tested novel feature are people >>> with coins >>> on bitcoin-staging. >>> >>> Yes I know about bitcoin-test this is not it. I mean a real live >>> system, >>> with live value, but that is intentionally wanting to avoid >>> forking bitcoins >>> parameters, nor value, nor mindshare dillution. In this way something >>> potentially interesting could move forward faster, and be les >>> risky to the >>> main bitcoin network. eg particularly defenses against >>> >>> It might also be a more real world test test (after bitcoin-test) >>> because >>> some parameters are different on test, and some issues may not >>> manifest >>> without more real activity. >>> >>> Then also bitcoin could cherry pick interesting patches and merge >>> them after >>> extensive real-world validation with real-money at stake (by early >>> adopters). >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> AlienVault Unified Security Management (USM) platform delivers >>> complete >>> security visibility with the essential security capabilities. >>> Easily and >>> efficiently configure, manage, and operate all of your security >>> controls >>> from a single console and one unified framework. Download a free >>> trial. >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/alienvault_d2d >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Are you coming to Bitcoin2013 in San Jose In >>> May? >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> CoinLab LogoPETER VESSENES >>> CEO >>> >>> *peter@coinlab.com * / 206.486.6856 >>> / SKYPE: vessenes >>> 71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300 / SEATTLE, WA 98104 >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> AlienVault Unified Security Management (USM) platform delivers complete >>> security visibility with the essential security capabilities. Easily and >>> efficiently configure, manage, and operate all of your security controls >>> from a single console and one unified framework. Download a free trial. >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/alienvault_d2d >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> AlienVault Unified Security Management (USM) platform delivers complete >> security visibility with the essential security capabilities. Easily and >> efficiently configure, manage, and operate all of your security controls >> from a single console and one unified framework. Download a free trial. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/alienvault_d2d >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>