From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970
Delivery-date: Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:22 -0700
Received: from mail-yb1-f186.google.com ([209.85.219.186])
by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
(Exim 4.94.2)
(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBCQ6HM7U3YGRB7XW2WYQMGQELWWCT4I@googlegroups.com>)
id 1s32t4-0007ze-0K
for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:22 -0700
Received: by mail-yb1-f186.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-de74a2635e2sf402516276.3
for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:21 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1714781056; x=1715385856; darn=gnusha.org;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version
:subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:sender:from
:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=GvrySHUfir/CEmcDfTkEWg1opCqy59Iq4vImaDkdTDI=;
b=cYkvf1WoP/f2aoqYL/qiaBT07PhzZeYIvzDbK2DyiWI9wEgikljEURnNXtk7zkDqJo
ExzCyD00IfKw4wjPGojw8aIpsA7jgEUbNBPheTyEbAZu0P0LrxW8ekeOVzyFKWYdkB+h
EPsJoagPwizg87oxorMbc4sJaTrUIml2p2VFXX7tc6ZMysa7GYnR3Oe7nmqB61x4YHD4
3wjAmxzWFDB6ffJ/dxzOdo0LWs8jzcKh2E8t7EBdtUY1LpmEMrqQGBu9GhhN7UBqwqNS
AS24H/iEcACWYed7JCIcSqRrYEPOuVlpKF96WvmvWHTmYd1z80Zp4zRNBJCIrfKcW9Rj
9aUg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1714781056; x=1715385856;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version
:subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:x-beenthere
:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
:reply-to;
bh=GvrySHUfir/CEmcDfTkEWg1opCqy59Iq4vImaDkdTDI=;
b=MvSwofBYGJl73XaT/V2Tm8ny87h3c8KHYm/xysEY3jjKZUo08NXNfb5NQV+voOUZHU
7liUVLF3ZWH5eFe49AiIP7sYstZ/QETTvNJLjnMXIE/dSRrYJbGiLAB9OPkWScLiyvAN
Yz/0t5QXDfePXlrla8YhzE7NNq+0P2NkSf5/jU1ETdLo7fvjpZRBVkKpXJIRLHbl6U6N
ofMg7Ye282s4PC1/lkoDBN2CY6fVZIMV6OgEs1xXx0lusZZFfgfhmBx3pPaLUnLd83Fj
r5ECGSorj14wYt9c5k15CkuL+LdIYVBmTN+vV/pcEfvjAuf1MZ6CyD7lua78wQCi+SFi
ztRg==
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXup8wiLH4dnMCDlLrdOtEE6za6MTkjA3YuGj9UxYMZAqAyYJrlpv3RRu8+wo8yuHoiTz8hdfOtf+ZJk4IdRU9piYibpQI=
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxrfPUynr7k6UhlizA2MpXUwmzUUN7vTyBgGF7iLZRn2NyUeqEJ
QEy1klu3+690LwQexNuqxynWqh6ZC/EZOJxkbA+wYLUPAW2k8PX0
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGy3AUUHrUxrVy3DEl3RuwLHMz2bM4JGGWmF8qSjhqeFIZP+d1rOy7pk76nMN4cMPaloPfpSA==
X-Received: by 2002:a25:2e44:0:b0:de1:2206:a87e with SMTP id b4-20020a252e44000000b00de12206a87emr4318846ybn.13.1714781055938;
Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
Received: by 2002:a25:6891:0:b0:de6:10bb:1374 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-de8b54f8c1als710895276.2.-pod-prod-09-us;
Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:2b0a:b0:de6:166f:3250 with SMTP id fi10-20020a0569022b0a00b00de6166f3250mr1315854ybb.2.1714781054411;
Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a05:690c:95:b0:611:9f18:9d1 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-61dfb36b65fms7b3;
Thu, 2 May 2024 00:10:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:2b0a:b0:dda:c57c:b69b with SMTP id fi10-20020a0569022b0a00b00ddac57cb69bmr1547838ybb.0.1714633843993;
Thu, 02 May 2024 00:10:43 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2024 00:10:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ali Sherief <ali@notatether.com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <52654980-c4f1-4d8e-a305-3a34c01b8599n@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <6a787f0d-db85-48fe-9e00-217ccd2a0f2f@mattcorallo.com>
References: <CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw@mail.gmail.com>
<6a787f0d-db85-48fe-9e00-217ccd2a0f2f@mattcorallo.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] The Future of Bitcoin Testnet
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="----=_Part_39319_876015227.1714633843614"
X-Original-Sender: ali@notatether.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
<https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
------=_Part_39319_876015227.1714633843614
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_Part_39320_1075845850.1714633843614"
------=_Part_39320_1075845850.1714633843614
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think the effort required to remove testnet entirely would be too much to=
=20
work on. Replacing it with something else is a better idea to minimize=20
disruption.
In the mean time, we need to figure out a process to at least lock down the=
=20
testnet3 network so that no new blocks can be mined while the replacement=
=20
chain is commissioned. Is there a BIP with a procedure for replacing=20
testnet? How was it done last time?
-Ali
On Sunday, April 28, 2024 at 2:06:01=E2=80=AFPM UTC Matt Corallo wrote:
It has always been very clearly communicated that if testnet starts being=
=20
valued or traded it will=20
be reset. There's some legitimate debate over parameters in a reset here,=
=20
but in the mean time=20
testnet3 has ceased to serve its intended purpose as a valueless test=20
platform. Thus, it should at=20
minimum be removed.=20
On 3/31/24 9:19 AM, Jameson Lopp wrote:=20
> Hi all,=20
>=20
> I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some feelers on=
=20
potential changes to it.=20
> First, a few facts:=20
>=20
> 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million=20
something and the block reward=20
> is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not doing a great job at=20
distributing testnet coins any more.=20
>=20
> 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather=20
amusing edge case bug that causes=20
> the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which causes a bit of havoc.=
=20
If you want a deep dive=20
> into the quirk:=20
https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/=20
> <https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/>=20
>=20
> 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who=
=20
tend to be generous with our=20
> testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing cheap gains.=
=20
>=20
> 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue=
=20
that the fundamental=20
> principle of testnet coins having no value has been broken.=20
>=20
> This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm soliciting=
=20
feedback.=20
>=20
> 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has=20
been since the last reset and=20
> how many production systems will need to be updated, would a reset need=
=20
to be done with a great deal=20
> of notice?=20
>=20
> 2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a=
=20
one liner fix, and I'd argue=20
> it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the network=
=20
reset question. Would such=20
> a change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a=20
self resolving fork due to the=20
> difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?=20
>=20
> 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate=20
testnet in favor of signet?=20
>=20
> - Jameson=20
>=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
=20
"Bitcoin Development=20
> Mailing List" group.=20
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
=20
email to=20
> bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com <mailto:bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com>.=
=20
> To view this discussion on the web visit=20
>=20
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2=
RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com=20
<
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2=
RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfoot=
er>.=20
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
bitcoindev/52654980-c4f1-4d8e-a305-3a34c01b8599n%40googlegroups.com.
------=_Part_39320_1075845850.1714633843614
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think the effort required to remove testnet entirely would be too much to=
work on. Replacing it with something else is a better idea to minimize dis=
ruption.<div><br /></div><div>In the mean time, we need to figure out a pro=
cess to at least lock down the testnet3 network so that no new blocks can b=
e mined while the replacement chain is commissioned. Is there a BIP with a =
procedure for replacing testnet? How was it done last time?</div><div><br /=
></div><div>-Ali<br /><br /><div><div dir=3D"auto">On Sunday, April 28, 202=
4 at 2:06:01=E2=80=AFPM UTC Matt Corallo wrote:<br /></div><blockquote styl=
e=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding-left: 1ex;">It has always been very clearly communicated that if te=
stnet starts being valued or traded it will=20
<br />be reset. There's some legitimate debate over parameters in a reset h=
ere, but in the mean time=20
<br />testnet3 has ceased to serve its intended purpose as a valueless test=
platform. Thus, it should at=20
<br />minimum be removed.
<br />
<br />On 3/31/24 9:19 AM, Jameson Lopp wrote:
<br />> Hi all,
<br />>=20
<br />> I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some fee=
lers on potential changes to it.=20
<br />> First, a few facts:
<br />>=20
<br />> 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 mil=
lion something and the block reward=20
<br />> is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not doing a great job at di=
stributing testnet coins any more.
<br />>=20
<br />> 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rath=
er amusing edge case bug that causes=20
<br />> the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which causes a bit o=
f havoc. If you want a deep dive=20
<br />> into the quirk: <a href=3D"https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storm=
s-of-bitcoins-testnet/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">https://blog.lop=
p.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/</a>=20
<br />> <<a href=3D"https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoin=
s-testnet/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">https://blog.lopp.net/the-bl=
ock-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/</a>>
<br />>=20
<br />> 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of=
us who tend to be generous with our=20
<br />> testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing chea=
p gains.
<br />>=20
<br />> 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one coul=
d argue that the fundamental=20
<br />> principle of testnet=C2=A0coins having no value has been broken.
<br />>=20
<br />> This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm s=
oliciting feedback.
<br />>=20
<br />> 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long =
it has been since the last reset and=20
<br />> how many production systems will need to be updated, would a res=
et need to be done with a great deal=20
<br />> of notice?
<br />>=20
<br />> 2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It shou=
ld be a one liner fix, and I'd argue=20
<br />> it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the=
network reset question. Would such=20
<br />> a change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also argua=
bly a self resolving fork due to the=20
<br />> difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?
<br />>=20
<br />> 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead dep=
recate testnet in favor of signet?
<br />>=20
<br />> - Jameson
<br />>=20
<br />> --=20
<br />> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goog=
le Groups "Bitcoin Development=20
<br />> Mailing List" group.
<br />> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it=
, send an email to=20
<br />> <a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com</a=
> <mailto:<a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com<=
/a>>.
<br />> To view this discussion on the web visit=20
<br />> <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_e=
XjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank" rel=3D"nofollow">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_e=
XjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com</a> <<a hre=
f=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vP=
Vy5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_sour=
ce=3Dfooter" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">https://groups.google.com/d=
/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mai=
l.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter</a>>.
<br /></blockquote></div></div>
<p></p>
-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind=
ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msgid/bitcoindev/52654980-c4f1-4d8e-a305-3a34c01b8599n%40googlegroups.=
com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/msg=
id/bitcoindev/52654980-c4f1-4d8e-a305-3a34c01b8599n%40googlegroups.com</a>.=
<br />
------=_Part_39320_1075845850.1714633843614--
------=_Part_39319_876015227.1714633843614--