From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:22 -0700 Received: from mail-yb1-f186.google.com ([209.85.219.186]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1s32t4-0007ze-0K for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:22 -0700 Received: by mail-yb1-f186.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-de74a2635e2sf402516276.3 for ; Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1714781056; x=1715385856; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:sender:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=GvrySHUfir/CEmcDfTkEWg1opCqy59Iq4vImaDkdTDI=; b=cYkvf1WoP/f2aoqYL/qiaBT07PhzZeYIvzDbK2DyiWI9wEgikljEURnNXtk7zkDqJo ExzCyD00IfKw4wjPGojw8aIpsA7jgEUbNBPheTyEbAZu0P0LrxW8ekeOVzyFKWYdkB+h EPsJoagPwizg87oxorMbc4sJaTrUIml2p2VFXX7tc6ZMysa7GYnR3Oe7nmqB61x4YHD4 3wjAmxzWFDB6ffJ/dxzOdo0LWs8jzcKh2E8t7EBdtUY1LpmEMrqQGBu9GhhN7UBqwqNS AS24H/iEcACWYed7JCIcSqRrYEPOuVlpKF96WvmvWHTmYd1z80Zp4zRNBJCIrfKcW9Rj 9aUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1714781056; x=1715385856; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:x-beenthere :x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=GvrySHUfir/CEmcDfTkEWg1opCqy59Iq4vImaDkdTDI=; b=MvSwofBYGJl73XaT/V2Tm8ny87h3c8KHYm/xysEY3jjKZUo08NXNfb5NQV+voOUZHU 7liUVLF3ZWH5eFe49AiIP7sYstZ/QETTvNJLjnMXIE/dSRrYJbGiLAB9OPkWScLiyvAN Yz/0t5QXDfePXlrla8YhzE7NNq+0P2NkSf5/jU1ETdLo7fvjpZRBVkKpXJIRLHbl6U6N ofMg7Ye282s4PC1/lkoDBN2CY6fVZIMV6OgEs1xXx0lusZZFfgfhmBx3pPaLUnLd83Fj r5ECGSorj14wYt9c5k15CkuL+LdIYVBmTN+vV/pcEfvjAuf1MZ6CyD7lua78wQCi+SFi ztRg== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXup8wiLH4dnMCDlLrdOtEE6za6MTkjA3YuGj9UxYMZAqAyYJrlpv3RRu8+wo8yuHoiTz8hdfOtf+ZJk4IdRU9piYibpQI= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxrfPUynr7k6UhlizA2MpXUwmzUUN7vTyBgGF7iLZRn2NyUeqEJ QEy1klu3+690LwQexNuqxynWqh6ZC/EZOJxkbA+wYLUPAW2k8PX0 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGy3AUUHrUxrVy3DEl3RuwLHMz2bM4JGGWmF8qSjhqeFIZP+d1rOy7pk76nMN4cMPaloPfpSA== X-Received: by 2002:a25:2e44:0:b0:de1:2206:a87e with SMTP id b4-20020a252e44000000b00de12206a87emr4318846ybn.13.1714781055938; Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Received: by 2002:a25:6891:0:b0:de6:10bb:1374 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-de8b54f8c1als710895276.2.-pod-prod-09-us; Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:2b0a:b0:de6:166f:3250 with SMTP id fi10-20020a0569022b0a00b00de6166f3250mr1315854ybb.2.1714781054411; Fri, 03 May 2024 17:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:690c:95:b0:611:9f18:9d1 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-61dfb36b65fms7b3; Thu, 2 May 2024 00:10:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:2b0a:b0:dda:c57c:b69b with SMTP id fi10-20020a0569022b0a00b00ddac57cb69bmr1547838ybb.0.1714633843993; Thu, 02 May 2024 00:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 May 2024 00:10:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Ali Sherief To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Message-Id: <52654980-c4f1-4d8e-a305-3a34c01b8599n@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <6a787f0d-db85-48fe-9e00-217ccd2a0f2f@mattcorallo.com> References: <6a787f0d-db85-48fe-9e00-217ccd2a0f2f@mattcorallo.com> Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] The Future of Bitcoin Testnet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_39319_876015227.1714633843614" X-Original-Sender: ali@notatether.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) ------=_Part_39319_876015227.1714633843614 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_39320_1075845850.1714633843614" ------=_Part_39320_1075845850.1714633843614 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the effort required to remove testnet entirely would be too much to= =20 work on. Replacing it with something else is a better idea to minimize=20 disruption. In the mean time, we need to figure out a process to at least lock down the= =20 testnet3 network so that no new blocks can be mined while the replacement= =20 chain is commissioned. Is there a BIP with a procedure for replacing=20 testnet? How was it done last time? -Ali On Sunday, April 28, 2024 at 2:06:01=E2=80=AFPM UTC Matt Corallo wrote: It has always been very clearly communicated that if testnet starts being= =20 valued or traded it will=20 be reset. There's some legitimate debate over parameters in a reset here,= =20 but in the mean time=20 testnet3 has ceased to serve its intended purpose as a valueless test=20 platform. Thus, it should at=20 minimum be removed.=20 On 3/31/24 9:19 AM, Jameson Lopp wrote:=20 > Hi all,=20 >=20 > I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some feelers on= =20 potential changes to it.=20 > First, a few facts:=20 >=20 > 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million=20 something and the block reward=20 > is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not doing a great job at=20 distributing testnet coins any more.=20 >=20 > 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather=20 amusing edge case bug that causes=20 > the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which causes a bit of havoc.= =20 If you want a deep dive=20 > into the quirk:=20 https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/=20 > =20 >=20 > 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who= =20 tend to be generous with our=20 > testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing cheap gains.= =20 >=20 > 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue= =20 that the fundamental=20 > principle of testnet coins having no value has been broken.=20 >=20 > This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm soliciting= =20 feedback.=20 >=20 > 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has=20 been since the last reset and=20 > how many production systems will need to be updated, would a reset need= =20 to be done with a great deal=20 > of notice?=20 >=20 > 2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a= =20 one liner fix, and I'd argue=20 > it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the network= =20 reset question. Would such=20 > a change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a=20 self resolving fork due to the=20 > difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?=20 >=20 > 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate=20 testnet in favor of signet?=20 >=20 > - Jameson=20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "Bitcoin Development=20 > Mailing List" group.=20 > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= =20 email to=20 > bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com .= =20 > To view this discussion on the web visit=20 >=20 https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2= RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com=20 < https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2= RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfoot= er>.=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/52654980-c4f1-4d8e-a305-3a34c01b8599n%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_39320_1075845850.1714633843614 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the effort required to remove testnet entirely would be too much to= work on. Replacing it with something else is a better idea to minimize dis= ruption.

In the mean time, we need to figure out a pro= cess to at least lock down the testnet3 network so that no new blocks can b= e mined while the replacement chain is commissioned. Is there a BIP with a = procedure for replacing testnet? How was it done last time?

-Ali

On Sunday, April 28, 202= 4 at 2:06:01=E2=80=AFPM UTC Matt Corallo wrote:
It has always been very clearly communicated that if te= stnet starts being valued or traded it will=20
be reset. There's some legitimate debate over parameters in a reset h= ere, but in the mean time=20
testnet3 has ceased to serve its intended purpose as a valueless test= platform. Thus, it should at=20
minimum be removed.

On 3/31/24 9:19 AM, Jameson Lopp wrote:
> Hi all,
>=20
> I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some fee= lers on potential changes to it.=20
> First, a few facts:
>=20
> 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 mil= lion something and the block reward=20
> is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not doing a great job at di= stributing testnet coins any more.
>=20
> 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rath= er amusing edge case bug that causes=20
> the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which causes a bit o= f havoc. If you want a deep dive=20
> into the quirk: https://blog.lop= p.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/=20
> <https://blog.lopp.net/the-bl= ock-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/>
>=20
> 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of= us who tend to be generous with our=20
> testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing chea= p gains.
>=20
> 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one coul= d argue that the fundamental=20
> principle of testnet=C2=A0coins having no value has been broken.
>=20
> This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm s= oliciting feedback.
>=20
> 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long = it has been since the last reset and=20
> how many production systems will need to be updated, would a res= et need to be done with a great deal=20
> of notice?
>=20
> 2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It shou= ld be a one liner fix, and I'd argue=20
> it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the= network reset question. Would such=20
> a change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also argua= bly a self resolving fork due to the=20
> difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?
>=20
> 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead dep= recate testnet in favor of signet?
>=20
> - Jameson
>=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goog= le Groups "Bitcoin Development=20
> Mailing List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it= , send an email to=20
> bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com <mailto:bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com<= /a>>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit=20
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_e= XjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d= /msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mai= l.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoind= ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg= id/bitcoindev/52654980-c4f1-4d8e-a305-3a34c01b8599n%40googlegroups.com.=
------=_Part_39320_1075845850.1714633843614-- ------=_Part_39319_876015227.1714633843614--