From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WJT3w-0003VS-6u for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 19:25:36 +0000 Received: from mail-yh0-f49.google.com ([209.85.213.49]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WJT3u-0008HM-S1 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 19:25:36 +0000 Received: by mail-yh0-f49.google.com with SMTP id z6so1215579yhz.8 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 11:25:29 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4eCQ8P3cl0Y8r+I8mhzCvWjPAsuNeGRFy6/Ymsw4Ses=; b=VoPfjs+saxml2OLivTCmfzSDGnDXLXgY+RH/MIA2Dqi5iJP70kh1QzVBLQpd3I8FMR pNcXZjM1nyPueMU5ufTUmWE4Q9YthQNsXKDevN2XIffczMHDcex8MJVcWhNVLGZ50z/Z 2GnYKJ2mXN0dbjQbyc07TbxOAEsmVPMLjY0Nmpq5rKiUpt87GwMFmFkau4JVqt40BEvi U7fSq19fCbi+0+LAubUcswn3jyS38c3Xi29AFZ65CydbmsxWsZcy5tvVHlSsucFXoFXh pmzrUMVe90evn3w2ZlVmloHsza97kzckkUxZwndaUwLJEpwQscnwEMvuhI0EICtjfUHy yTIg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmSVHTgU6oy44564sxGhfsHOmTGggTaiMnJCCkGaF7JWlr7c2XuGLixoiEkGQfBZYKGYFKZ X-Received: by 10.236.96.201 with SMTP id r49mr5197875yhf.33.1393615529081; Fri, 28 Feb 2014 11:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.127.144] (108-193-6-130.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net. [108.193.6.130]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id q69sm8618221yhd.22.2014.02.28.11.25.27 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Feb 2014 11:25:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5310E2A7.3060809@monetize.io> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 11:25:27 -0800 From: Mark Friedenbach Organization: Monetize.io Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net References: <530B8000.1070801@monetize.io> <20140228052523.GO3180@nl.grid.coop> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. X-Headers-End: 1WJT3u-0008HM-S1 Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] On OP_RETURN in upcoming 0.9 release X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 19:25:36 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Transaction fees are a DoS mitigating cost to the person making the transaction, but they are generally not paid to the people who actually incur costs in validating the blockchain. Actual transaction processing costs are an externality that is completely unpaid for. When I add a 1Kb transaction to the blockchain, there is an attached fee which probabilistically goes to one of the miners. But every other full node on the network also receives this transaction, processes it, and adds it to local storage. From now until the heat death of the universe that 1Kb of data will be redundantly stored and transmitted to every single person who validates the block chain. None of these countless people are reimbursed for their storage, bandwidth, and processing costs. Not even a single satoshi. Yes, transaction fees are broken. But it is their very nature which is broken (sending coins to the miners, not the greater validator set), and no little tweak like the one Warren links to will fix this. But, in the absence of a reformed fee regime - which it is not clear is even possible - one could at least make the hand-wavey argument that people who validate the block chain receive benefit from it as a payment network. Therefore processing of the block chain is "paid for" by the utility it provides once fully synced. However even this weak argument does not extend to general data storage. If you want to put all of wikileaks or whatever in the block chain, then you are extracting a rent from every full node which is forced to process and store this data for eternity without compensation or derived utility. You are extorting users of the payment network into providing a storage service at no cost, because the alternative (losing bitcoin as a payment network) would cost them more. That is not ethical behavior. That is not behavior which responsible developers should allow in the reference client. Mark On 02/28/2014 06:42 AM, Warren Togami Jr. wrote: > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Troy Benjegerdes > wrote: > > > Either the transaction fees are sufficient to pay the cost for > whatever random junk anyone wants to put there, or they are not, > and if they are not, then I suggest you re-think the fee structure > rather than trying to pre-regulate me putting 80 character pithy > quotes in the blockhain. > > > https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/commit/db4d8e21d99551bef4c807aa1534a074e4b7964d > > In one way in particular, the transaction fees per kilobyte > completely failed to account for the actual cost to the network. > If Bitcoin had adopted a common-sense rule like this, I would have > had no reason to join Litecoin development last year. This is one > of the few economic design flaws that Satoshi overlooked in the > original design. > > As much as I personally hate the idea of data storage in the > blockchain, this at least discourages the creation of permanent > UTXO. > > Warren Togami > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool. > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow > Analyzer Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and > generate reports. Network behavioral analysis & security > monitoring. All-in-one tool. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > > > > _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development > mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJTEOKjAAoJEAdzVfsmodw4vGIQAJ9OQvHl1+dIaDelrf03lGIf kQsiuB4JG1rRghsZZiW4NixPbB/Bdm4+m4pep01eiVOPXa+/32AgWVzSYyyMVRYB oTu24ITgtCu5vkjiHyzSavFnqsi+zMxVpscUekA6l6Tkr3RBNnrIssMiazYc+Bkx fP2vZehmPHQtp09WkapZ3DMqbMzQ7qPTGlKd1V+9X4S5uUNTdfT6JkC0HIqUSdVQ PHjjbuulgkdz4b7A6C2dE5kwXVKF9YFHL3zEtObfWDCiyY8wf2XHYI6nVGLbyQeN nrYCsMH99lUy+zmnbccqSPKhe0p5IaBLauk75zcLxEfzxuKVTvVg2LCaCXQaworv vBoAURdrB2pCfK8dZ7mllVLLLcNk+iOG0NDZHYE9e884OBfeuaG/zNgmgOD8GC1H FaDkIpm79x/i3ti3h8vdZPeY0fWdI8yuD9aCQZtvONM9hXdd7Qb07eHqIk7tY/In 7h6zdq27GQUdWN37yslxtDENY2q3yQ39+fjMGQEKVIE6rNwDyjurMCNHAWJp0hZO 7S/rDe2W2tHGPYakscHQh1g/uMAEEb4mGGc5yrfWxyOn5eb9OZiZb8RVXlnDwwH9 qr8qwLJ1b0Uxo981lyEmnLZSpCpAZvDLpjmocqirycNZpvyPnJJbE809vS/koD3d OutJkMja4TBuqaMSdKEI =KbW/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----