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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 20:09:56 -0400
From: Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail.com>
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To: kjj <bitcoin-devel@jerviss.org>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Multisign payment protocol?
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As far as I'm concerned, the way forward is to scrap BIP 10 and build up
something new that is flexible and extensible.  Also, my understanding
is that there may be room in the payment protocol for this stuff though
I'm not sure if it is really adapted well to all the steps: exchanging
public keys, creating multi-sig/P2SH addresses, proposing multi-sig
spends, bundling meta-data needed for lite/offline nodes, aggregating
signatures, and any other details.

When I start multisig integration into Armory (very soon!) I'll write a
list of requirements for the new format/process and post it here for a
wider discussion.  Certainly, if the payment protocol can already handle
all this, that would be awesome.

-Alan


On 03/10/2014 08:04 PM, kjj wrote:
> I was trying to use bip10 for multisig and coinjoin, but there was a
> problem with it.  I'll have to look back at my notes, but I thought I
> sent you a message about it.  And then real life swallowed my bitcoin
> time...
>
> I think the bottom line was that it would be useful in the generic
> case with just one minor change.  If there is interest, and it sounds
> like there just may be, I can dust off my notes and see where I left
> it.  Probably should do it soon before someone implements it in PB or XML.
>
> Alan Reiner wrote:
>> Then of course I tried to do this with BIP 10 
>> <https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0010.mediawiki> when
>> Armory implemented offline-transactions two years ago.  I got some
>> positive feedback, but no one wanted to help improve it, etc.  I
>> guess nobody else was doing it and/or cared at the time.  So I
>> continue to use BIP 10 even though it's pretty crappy.  I wanted it
>> to be useful for multisig, too, but it has some deficiencies there
>> (it was done when Armory was extremely young and OP_EVAL was still on
>> the table).
>>
>> However, with all this activity, we should start thinking about that
>> and discussing it.  Otherwise, I'll just do my own thing again and
>> probably end up with something that fits my own needs, but not anyone
>> else's.  Really though, multisig shouldn't require all the same app
>> to work.
>>
>> -Alan
>>
>>
>> On 03/10/2014 01:49 PM, Gavin Andresen wrote:
>>> In my experience, best process for standardizing something is:
>>>
>>> 1) Somebody has a great idea
>>> 2) They implement it
>>> 3) Everybody agrees, "Great idea!" and they copy it.
>>> 4) Idea gets refined by the people copying it.
>>> 5) It gets standardized.
>>>
>>> Mutisig wallets are at step 2 right now. BIP is step 5, in my humble
>>> opinion...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 1:39 PM, Drak <drak@zikula.org
>>> <mailto:drak@zikula.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     I was wondering if there would be merit in a kind of BIP for a
>>>     payment protocol using multisig?
>>>
>>>     Currently, setting up a multisig is quite a feat. Users have to
>>>     exchange public keys, work out how to get the public keys from
>>>     their addresses. If one of the parties are not savvy enough, an
>>>     malicious party could easily be setup that was 2 of 3 instead of
>>>     2 of 2 where the malicious party generates the multisig
>>>     address+script and thus be able to run off with funds anyway.
>>>
>>>     It's also terribly complex to generate and keep track of.
>>>     There's been a nice attempt at creating an browser interface at
>>>     coinb.in/multisig <http://coinb.in/multisig> but it still lacks
>>>     the kind of ease with created by the payment protocol. If there
>>>     was a BIP then it would go a long way to aiding future usability
>>>     of multisig wallet implementations.
>>>
>>>     What are your thoughts?
>>>
>>>     Drak
>>>
>>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>     Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>>>     "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>>>     and their
>>>     applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>>>     this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>>>     http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>>     Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>     <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> --
>>> Gavin Andresen
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>


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    As far as I'm concerned, the way forward is to scrap BIP 10 and
    build up something new that is flexible and extensible.&nbsp; Also, my
    understanding is that there may be room in the payment protocol for
    this stuff though I'm not sure if it is really adapted well to all
    the steps: exchanging public keys, creating multi-sig/P2SH
    addresses, proposing multi-sig spends, bundling meta-data needed for
    lite/offline nodes, aggregating signatures, and any other details.<br>
    <br>
    When I start multisig integration into Armory (very soon!) I'll
    write a list of requirements for the new format/process and post it
    here for a wider discussion.&nbsp; Certainly, if the payment protocol can
    already handle all this, that would be awesome.<br>
    <br>
    -Alan<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 03/10/2014 08:04 PM, kjj wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:531E52FE.5090107@jerviss.org" type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">I was trying to use bip10 for
        multisig and coinjoin, but there was a problem with it.&nbsp; I'll
        have to look back at my notes, but I thought I sent you a
        message about it.&nbsp; And then real life swallowed my bitcoin
        time...<br>
        <br>
        I think the bottom line was that it would be useful in the
        generic case with just one minor change.&nbsp; If there is interest,
        and it sounds like there just may be, I can dust off my notes
        and see where I left it.&nbsp; Probably should do it soon before
        someone implements it in PB or XML.<br>
        <br>
        Alan Reiner wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote cite="mid:531DFDF8.80008@gmail.com" type="cite">
        <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
          http-equiv="Content-Type">
        Then of course I tried to do this with <a
          moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0010.mediawiki">BIP



          10&nbsp;</a> when Armory implemented offline-transactions two years
        ago.&nbsp; I got some positive feedback, but no one wanted to help
        improve it, etc.&nbsp; I guess nobody else was doing it and/or cared
        at the time.&nbsp; So I continue to use BIP 10 even though it's
        pretty crappy.&nbsp; I wanted it to be useful for multisig, too, but
        it has some deficiencies there (it was done when Armory was
        extremely young and OP_EVAL was still on the table).<br>
        <br>
        However, with all this activity, we should start thinking about
        that and discussing it.&nbsp; Otherwise, I'll just do my own thing
        again and probably end up with something that fits my own needs,
        but not anyone else's.&nbsp; Really though, multisig shouldn't
        require all the same app to work.<br>
        <br>
        -Alan<br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 03/10/2014 01:49 PM, Gavin
          Andresen wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote
cite="mid:CABsx9T0SMi6Gp4JY=CpHxLEu5pVkvDmnug7PsY7m_dvtT7khzg@mail.gmail.com"
          type="cite">
          <div dir="ltr">In my experience, best process for
            standardizing something is:
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>1) Somebody has a great idea</div>
            <div>2) They implement it</div>
            <div>3) Everybody agrees, "Great idea!" and they copy it.</div>
            <div>4) Idea gets refined by the people copying it.</div>
            <div>5) It gets standardized.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Mutisig wallets are at step 2 right now. BIP is step 5,
              in my humble opinion...</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
          </div>
          <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
            <br>
            <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 1:39 PM,
              Drak <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:drak@zikula.org" target="_blank">drak@zikula.org</a>&gt;</span>
              wrote:<br>
              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                <div dir="ltr">I was wondering if there would be merit
                  in a kind of BIP for a payment protocol using
                  multisig?
                  <div><br>
                    <div>Currently, setting up a multisig is quite a
                      feat. Users have to exchange public keys, work out
                      how to get the public keys from their addresses.
                      If one of the parties are not savvy enough, an
                      malicious party could easily be setup that was 2
                      of 3 instead of 2 of 2 where the malicious party
                      generates the multisig address+script and thus be
                      able to run off with funds anyway.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>It's also terribly complex to generate and keep
                      track of. There's been a nice attempt at creating
                      an browser interface at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://coinb.in/multisig" target="_blank">coinb.in/multisig</a>
                      but it still lacks the kind of ease with created
                      by the payment protocol. If there was a BIP then
                      it would go a long way to aiding future usability
                      of multisig wallet implementations.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>What are your thoughts?</div>
                    <span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Drak</div>
                      </font></span></div>
                </div>
                <br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
                Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book<br>
                "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph
                databases and their<br>
                applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
                field,<br>
                this first edition is now available. Download your free
                book today!<br>
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech"
                  target="_blank">http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech</a><br>
                _______________________________________________<br>
                Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development"
                  target="_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br>
                <br>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <br>
            <br clear="all">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            -- <br>
            --<br>
            Gavin Andresen<br>
          </div>
          <br>
          <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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          <pre wrap="">------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech">http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech</a></pre>
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        <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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        <pre wrap="">------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech">http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech</a></pre>
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