From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Wd82I-0001Ss-B9 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 01:01:10 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from masada.superduper.net ([85.119.82.91]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1Wd82G-0005mM-5b for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 01:01:10 +0000 Received: from [38.88.216.74] (helo=[10.0.0.111]) by masada.superduper.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Wd7k6-0004gb-Jv for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 01:42:30 +0100 Message-ID: <53585DEC.3030909@superduper.net> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 17:42:20 -0700 From: Simon Barber User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net References: <20140422213128.GB2578@savin> <53574581.3040004@thinlink.com> <1533579.cuHiT41BQ7@crushinator> <53583ECD.5000105@thinlink.com> In-Reply-To: <53583ECD.5000105@thinlink.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -0.7 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain X-Headers-End: 1Wd82G-0005mM-5b Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Double-spending unconfirmed transactions is a lot easier than most people realise X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 01:01:10 -0000 Miners earn bitcoins, and clearly a network where reasonable certainty can be achieved with 0-confirm transactions is more useful, thus will result in those bitcoins being more valuable. One would expect rational miners (or pool operators) to want to collaborate to reduce the possibilities for double spend attacks as much as possible. Simon On 4/23/2014 3:29 PM, Tom Harding wrote: > On 4/22/2014 9:03 PM, Matt Whitlock wrote: >> On Tuesday, 22 April 2014, at 8:45 pm, Tom Harding wrote: >>> A network where transaction submitters consider their (final) >>> transactions to be unchangeable the moment they are transmitted, and >>> where the network's goal is to confirm only transactions all of whose >>> UTXO's have not yet been seen in a final transaction's input, has a >>> chance to be such a network. >> Respectfully, this is not the goal of miners. The goal of miners is to maximize profits. Always will be. If they can do that by enabling replace-by-fee (and they can), then they will. Altruism does not factor into business. > The rational miner works hard digging hashes out of the ether, and wants > the reward to be great. How much more valuable would his reward be if > he were paid in something that is spendable like cash on a 1-minute > network for coffee and other innumerable real-time transactions, versus > something that is only spendable on a 15-minute network? > > There is a prisoner's dilemma, to be sure, but do the fees from helping > people successfully double-spend their coffee supplier really outweigh > the increased value to the entire network - including himself - of > ensuring that digital cash actually works like cash? > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform > Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready > Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform > http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development