From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WfY52-0006Vd-Dg for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 30 Apr 2014 17:14:00 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.216.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.53; envelope-from=jameson.lopp@gmail.com; helo=mail-qa0-f53.google.com; Received: from mail-qa0-f53.google.com ([209.85.216.53]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WfY4y-0000W3-HI for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 30 Apr 2014 17:14:00 +0000 Received: by mail-qa0-f53.google.com with SMTP id i13so1913426qae.40 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2014 10:13:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.224.61.200 with SMTP id u8mr7402666qah.18.1398878031007; Wed, 30 Apr 2014 10:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.119.214] (BRONTO-SOFT.car1.Raleigh1.Level3.net. [4.59.160.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id j1sm47007307qan.32.2014.04.30.10.13.50 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Apr 2014 10:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53612F4E.80708@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 13:13:50 -0400 From: Jameson Lopp User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net References: <5359E509.4080907@gmail.com> <535A60FE.10209@gmail.com> <535BA357.6050607@gmail.com> <535CFDB4.1000200@gmail.com> <20140428214102.GA8347@netbook.cypherspace.org> <5360F3D6.4040002@gmail.com> <20140430170638.GE3180@nl.grid.coop> In-Reply-To: <20140430170638.GE3180@nl.grid.coop> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jameson.lopp[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1WfY4y-0000W3-HI Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Coinbase reallocation to discourage Finney attacks X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 17:14:00 -0000 Perhaps I missed it somewhere, but I don't recall it ever being a goal of Bitcoin to act as a stable long-term store of value. - Jameson On 04/30/2014 01:06 PM, Troy Benjegerdes wrote: > On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:00:06PM +1000, Gareth Williams wrote: >> On 30/04/14 00:13, Mike Hearn wrote: >>> I do think we need to move beyond this idea of Bitcoin being some kind >>> of elegant embodiment of natural mathematical law. It just ain't so. >> >> I haven't seen anybody arguing that it is. >> >> Bitcoin is the elegant embodiment of /artificially contrived/ >> mathematical rules, which just so happen to be very useful in their >> current configuration :-P >> >> Nobody is saying those rules are immutable. Just that it isn't sensible >> to undermine them by introducing imprecise and unpredictable elements >> like human politics. > > As an end-user of Bitcoin, the whole possible value of a set of mathematical > rules has become completely trashed by the imprecise and unpredictable behavior > of buyers and sellers. > > If the rules are not responsive to real human needs, bitcoin is worthless > as a long-term store of value because **my idea of value** changes over time. > This implies, in my mind, an absolutely requirement to attempt to gather > some useful signal from the human political noise. > > How do you determine what that signal is, so you can **change the rules** > and the mathematics so it makes more sense? > > You've got to deal with politics, one way or another. > >