From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from <justusranvier@riseup.net>) id 1YLyFA-0005pP-UQ for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 12 Feb 2015 18:12:05 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) client-ip=198.252.153.129; envelope-from=justusranvier@riseup.net; helo=mx1.riseup.net; Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) id 1YLyF9-0006My-H4 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 12 Feb 2015 18:12:04 +0000 Received: from berryeater.riseup.net (berryeater-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DA95416CD for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>; Thu, 12 Feb 2015 18:11:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: justusranvier) with ESMTPSA id E067842A71 Received: from [192.168.202.127] (unknown [192.168.202.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by nobelium.whale.ddns.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8F1A1DB806 for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>; Thu, 12 Feb 2015 12:11:33 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <54DCECE4.3020802@riseup.net> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 18:11:48 +0000 From: Justus Ranvier <justusranvier@riseup.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net References: <20150212064719.GA6563@savin.petertodd.org> <CANEZrP2uVT_UqJbzyQcEbiS78T68Jj2cH7OGXv5QtYiCwArDdA@mail.gmail.com> <CAE28kUQ87jWhq1p6RK1eKEuEP1ERxN_P2SS0=YsFEGAqRyMPLA@mail.gmail.com> <CANEZrP2H2T2QFZceCc=YzwwiApJy7kY7FN0LoAZODGbW12SYsw@mail.gmail.com> <CAE28kURa8g3YTPi-GHKAt4v0csxXe=QhGhV3aQcDZGSr=Lb7RQ@mail.gmail.com> <CANEZrP2hAUsRfeXUo-DLiiRmG5uJcwFuP4=o1S6Fb7ts5Ud=bw@mail.gmail.com> <CADJgMztrzMh8=Y6SD-JV1hpTTbGB8Y2u=59bQhGtF6h3+Ei_Ew@mail.gmail.com> <356E7F6E-300A-4127-9885-2183FB1DE447@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <356E7F6E-300A-4127-9885-2183FB1DE447@gmail.com> OpenPGP: id=EAD9E623; url=http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2A5FDA70EAD9E623 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020806020003070609090405" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.5 at mx1 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [198.252.153.129 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines X-Headers-End: 1YLyF9-0006My-H4 Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4 X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development> List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 18:12:05 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020806020003070609090405 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 02/12/2015 05:24 PM, Oleg Andreev wrote: > >> I think that is a misdirection on your part. The point of >> replace-by-fee is to make 0-confirms reliably unreliable. >> Currently people can "get away" with 0-confirms but it's only >> because most people arent actively double spending, and when they >> do it is for higher value targets. Double spend attacks are >> happening a lot more frequently than is being admitted here, >> according to Peter from work with various clients. >> >> Like single address reuse, people have gotten used to something >> which is bad. Generally accepting 0-conf is also a bad idea(tm) >> and instant confirmation solutions should be sought elsewhere. >> There are already interesting solutions and concepts: >> greenaddress for example, and CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY micropayment >> channels for example. Rather than supporting and promoting risky >> 0-confirms, we need to spend time on better alternative solutions >> that will work for everyone and not during the honeymoon phase >> where attackers are fewer. > > Here's value-free assessment of the issue here: > > 1. Zero-conf txs are unsafe. 2. We'd all want to have a safer > instant payments solution if possible. 3. As a social artifact, > today zeroconf txs happen to work for some people in some > situations. 4. Replace-by-fee will break #3 and probably hasten > development of #2. > > The discussion boils down to whether we should make #2 happen > sooner by breaking remnants of #3 sooner. > > I personally would rather not break anything, but work as fast as > possible on #2 so no matter when and how #3 becomes utterly broken, > we have a better solution. This implies that I also don't want to > waste time debating with Peter Todd and others. I want to be ready > with a working tool when zeroconf completely fails (with that patch > or for some other reasons). > > TL;DR: those who are against the patch are better off building a > decentralized clearing network rather than wasting time on debates. > When we have such network, we might all want this patch to be used > for all the reasons Peter has already outlined. You've left out of the discussion that many (or all) proposed solutions for 2 either reduce privacy, or security, or both. That fact should not be ignored or swept under the rug. There's also no mention of the degree to which child-pays-for-parent achieves the stated aims of the original proposal (clearing mempool of stuck transactions, increasing payee assurance of conformation) without introducing incentives to double spend or forcing people into privacy/security sacrifices. - -- Support online privacy by using email encryption whenever possible. 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